> General Discussions
Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
indianabob:
Thank you very much Dave.
I had not heard this explained the way Ray did in the Bible study.
Much to consider and very grateful.
Indiana Bob ;D
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on August 21, 2014, 10:44:45 PM ---Bob, here is what you were asking about.
G2822
κλητός
klētos
Total KJV Occurrences: 11
called, 11
Mat_20:16, Mat_22:14, Rom_1:1, Rom_1:6-7 (2), Rom_8:28, 1Co_1:1-2 (2), 1Co_1:24, Jud_1:1, Rev_17:14
G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
Total KJV Occurrences: 23
elect, 13
Mat_24:24, Mat_24:31, Mar_13:22, Mar_13:27, Luk_18:7, Rom_8:33, Col_3:12, 1Ti_5:21, Tit_1:1, 1Pe_1:2, 1Pe_2:6, 2Jo_1:1, 2Jo_1:13
chosen, 7
Mat_20:16, Mat_22:14, Luk_23:35, Rom_16:13, 1Pe_2:4, 1Pe_2:9, Rev_17:14
elect’s, 3
Mat_24:22, Mar_13:20, 2Ti_2:10
--- End quote ---
santgem:
I was thrust into your arms at my birth.
You have been my God from moment I was born. Psa 22:10 NLT
On Thee I have been cast from the womb, From the belly of my mother Thou art my God. YLT
I was cast upon thee from my birth: thou art my God from the time I was born. WEB
I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly. KJB
I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb
You have been My God.NKJB
Jesus is not a created being!
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.Rev 5:13
Every creature worshiping that sitteth upon the throne and unto the lamb, if Jesus is created being then he should also joining those that worship God.
Kat:
Hi santgem,
Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: (NKJV)
Rev 3:14 `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness--the faithful and true--the chief of the creation of God; (YLT)
You cannot deny what is said there in Revelation, because there is a point about the Son being actually the first/chief creation of the Father. It is the Father who is the source by which we have this creation, He is greatest of all (John 10:29), He determined to bring this creation into being "by/through His Son" (Rom 11:36). So if this is the Father's creation, then Son was the "beginning" of this creation, not the 'beginner' or origin of it or something, because then it would be the Son's creation.
1Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
1Co 8:6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (Concordant)
And everything is being reconciled to the Father (His creation) by/through the Son.
2Cor 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
But we do know the Son was "Firstborn over/of every/all creation... before all things."
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, (Concordant)
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html --------------
Who and What is Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).
"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).
"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).
"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)
"God’s CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).
"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).
"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).
I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God.?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.
Is Christ God? YES HE IS!
"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:08).
And also:
Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!
"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),
"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),
"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God’s Son art Thou!’"
"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).
So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.
Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Jesus explains this verse for us:
"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."
Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.
Notice that Jesus always acknowledges His subjection to His Father:
"Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" (John 13:3).
"Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John 14:10).
"And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father’s Who sends me" (John 14:24).
"I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" (John 14:28).
"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (I Cor. 15:28).
These Scriptures are clear, and there are many more like this. The Father is GREATER than His Son, and the Son will ALWAYS be subjected to His Father. They are NOT two, coequal Gods of a fabled trinity. They are "Father and Son." They are "FAMILY!" And the "spirit of God" is just that, the spirit "OF" God, not "the spirit God." And Jesus Christ has this SAME SPIRIT in Himself also. And it is THIS VERY SPIRIT that God the Father gives to US through His Son, Jesus Christ. It is not difficult to understand if one will simply believe the Scriptures.
-------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Dennis Vogel:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on August 20, 2014, 11:56:11 AM ---Maybe listen to all of this:
http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.4.mp3
--- End quote ---
I was off by one video. Try this one:
http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.5.mp3
walt123:
Hello ,all.
So far what I read on this post,is there one or two,I believe the later.
Bible study march 2011,
All of it ,but this one in I think is best.
WHO WAS JESUS CHRIST
Now think about this, there is basically, apart from what some people would say that Christ never existed in the first place, but basically we have these teaching;
1) Jesus Christ is the second person of a triune God of this trinity God head. He’s the second person. He’s not the first or the third, but He’s the second. That He existed from all eternity with the Father.
2) We have this, and there is any number of them, and that is including the Jehovah Witnesses, that Jesus Christ was just a man. Okay, just a man.
Sir Anthony Buzzard, says in his book on the trinity, that Jesus Christ came into existence for the first time when He was born to Mary. He is not some other God, He’s not some deity, He didn’t exist from all eternity with the Father. He was born, a baby boy and grew up to be a man and that’s what He was, a man.
3) There are a few of us that believe that Jesus Christ was created by His Father. Begotten, yes, and created.
If Jesus Christ were this so called second person of the triune God, why would His Father have to tell Him or show Him anything? I mean He is God, right? What does the Father know that He doesn’t pray tell, if He was there with God from all eternity? He wouldn’t have to tell Him or show Him anything, I mean that is a slap in the face.
Another little problem is, if Jesus Christ is God, very God, God of God they say, eternal, from eternity. How could He die? God can’t die!
On the other hand if He were just a human being and He didn’t come from anywhere, except His mother’s womb. Then someplace between coming out of His mother’s womb and going out and spreading the gospel, He had to find out who He was. Who told Him? When was He told? He couldn’t have very well been told when He was 12 years old.
At the Passover time, when Jesus was 12 years old they went up to Jerusalem and they were there for the feast. And it came to pass after they left they looked around in their company and Jesus wasn’t there. So they went back to Jerusalem, apparently they were gone a whole day and then they had to come back another whole day and then they walked around Jerusalem a whole day. They went to all of the places that they thought He might be and finally they found Him at the temple.
Luke 2:48 And when they saw Him, they were amazed: and His mother said unto Him, Son, why have You thus dealt with us? behold, Your father and I have sought You sorrowing.
By the way that word “sorrowing” is the identical Greek word used in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, where the rich man said I am being “tormented,” it’s the same word. So I don’t think Mary was being burnt with fire.
v. 49 And He said unto them, How is it that you sought Me? Wist you not…
“Wist” we don’t use that word anymore. Wist you not that we should be soon eating lunch.
v. 49 …Don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?
v. 50 And they understood not…
They didn’t know who He was, Jesus is 12 years old and His own parents didn’t know who He was. Remember Simon wanting to see the newborn baby, before he died, he knew who He was. The shepherds they were taught who He was. He’s dealing with those of the law here in the temple and there was the angel of the Lord and the heavenly host.
I mean all these people dealt with Jesus and they didn’t know, His own parents didn’t know who He was. He was just a little boy that got left behind and they had to go back and get Him. He said “don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?”
So at 12 years old He wasn’t told, He already knew who He was! Not only did He know that His Father had business for Him to do, He was already doing it! He said I’m already about it, I‘m already doing it, at 12 years old. Well when did He know who He was?
This is just for fun. Let’s assume that He did not have any recollection that He came from somewhere from God and that He was now growing up as a boy to become a man, the Savior of the world. He had no such recollection that this is what He was doing here. He was just a little boy. So imagine Mary, let’s say He is 5 years old, setting down little 5 year old Jesus on her knee one day. So she says to Him;
Mary - Son I have something very important to tell You. It time you know that Joseph, my husband, is not your father (To which Jesus is utterly shocked).
Little Jesus replies - I don’t understand. What do you mean daddy isn’t my Father? Who is my father?
Mary - God is your Father.
Jesus - God!? How can God be my Father, you told me that God was up in heaven.
Mary - Yes that’s true son, but He’s nonetheless your Father.
Jesus - Does that mean you’re not My mother?
Mary - No son, I’m still your mother.
Jesus - Is daddy and God your husband? I thought daddy is your husband.
Mary - Yes Joseph is my husband, but God is your Father. Joseph is the father to your bothers and sisters, but he’s not your father.
Jesus - But I want daddy to be my daddy.
Mary - Well he is kind of your daddy, it’s just that you were actually begotten by God in heaven.
Jesus - I got what? What did I get?
Mary - No Son, begot means… well I will explain it to you later.
Jesus - Mother does dad know about all this stuff.
I don’t mean to be sacrilegious, but I can’t buy that scenario. I just don’t believe that happened and something like that would have had to happen, if He was just a little Jewish boy growing up to be the Messiah and didn‘t know it. I mean who would want to spring something like that on a little boy? That’s pretty traumatizing.
Walt.
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