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Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?

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lilitalienboi16:

--- Quote from: newgene87 on April 05, 2012, 07:52:44 PM ---Okay. Thanks to everyone for the comments. I'm not the one for confrontation: "a wise WILL hear, and will increase learning..." (Pro 1:5), so trust me, I am listening (actually reading) and taking everything in. To correct some speculation this is not a question on the Scriptures or the Word of God. Someone stated if you take away Paul you take away the New Testament...... what a slap in the face for the Gospels, James, Peter, John (the pillars of the Gospel); the ones who actually SAW and Walked with Jesus during His ministry. Matthews Gospel alone has truths throughout it and all of Jesus parables actually cover Life as we should live, in His name. So, no, Paul is Not THAT big. And that's my concern as well, Paul has been elevated to Jesus Himself - and that should not be the case. His writings have taken importance over Jesuss own words, the Torah, and the Prophets. But I'm taking all the insight in and came HERE for comments cause believe it or not, I LOVE this forum and everyone's insight and comments: and there is a lot of wisdom here. So instead of googling, or finding a pastor, why not the bible-truths forum :-D. People who seek the truth. So thanks for the insight. thanks to everyone for the words. For myself- I'll just uphold Jesus's words as chief in my learning and the scriptures. Im still a little shaken on Paul, from his mysterious name change from Saul (within a verse), his excessive talk of himself ("He that speaks of himself seeks his own glory...." John 7:17-18). And Paul spoke of himself a lot. Oh well, 1 Corinthians 13, Romans 8, Galatians 5, and Ephesians 2 are still GOLDEN writings so I'll just leave it to God and be knowledgeable in the Word. Thanks family :).

--- End quote ---

I really feel like you did not read the links that were provided to you by anyone here.

Is it possible that Saul's "mysterious" name change had something to do with his radical change in heart in the blink of eye. From the worlds foremost sinner to maybe the greatest single champion for Jesus Christ? Just maybe it has to do with this?

His "excessive talk of himself?" Can you link these scriptures when making such accusations. I honestly want to see Paul seeking "his own glory."

But yea, those are golden writings aren't they?

You're welcome :)

lilitalienboi16:
I'm just curious, what does everyone think of a passage like this:

Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.

If Luke wrote Acts, and luke is writting here that Paul was filled with the holy spirit of God, why is this not good enough authority for people? Shouldn't this erase all doubt of Paul, when even Luke is saying that he was filled with the holy spirit? Unless people want to start saying that luke wasn't a real apostle too, or that we can't trust the word of God. Surely God doesn't fill those who are misleading His flock astray with the holy spirit. Filled is a strong word.

Peter also referencing paul in a similar mannor:

2 Peter 3:15 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;"

If you can't trust the Word of God, than what exactly are you building your foundation with/on?

Joel:
Paul was a follower of Jesus Christ to the utmost, just as the Lord said he would be, as it is recorded in The Acts of The Apostles and other writings.
Paul said this;
1st Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Those are words I take to heart in my ever day life, and apply to those I respect that share the Gospel in today's world.

Joel

newgene87:
Okay, gotta reply to this..this was longer than I expected, but a few asked for scriptures, here they are.  Now, responding to...

His "excessive talk of himself?" Can you link these scriptures when making such accusations. I honestly want to see Paul seeking "his own glory."

Okay, now jus turn to any epistle you will see I, I, and I all throughout his epistles.... "I have written the more boldly unto you...that I should be the minister of Jesus... I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus...For I will not dare to speak of any of those thing... I have fully preached...so have I strived to preached" (Romans 15:15-24)...like really? You cant see the "I" I I in that. Paul puts HIMSELF right along "Christ Jesus" of the forefront in his letters. And quite frankly, it was a little disturbing. WAS now, cuz I'm beyond this, but I'm proving a point, Paul spoke of himself too much, when it's, "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world" (Matthew 24:14). And that should be Jesus Christ. Another example and this goes with what the lady said before, "I ROBBED other churches, taking wages to do you service. And when I was present..i was chargeable..." (2Cor 11:8). So it's okay to "take wages" and "rob" now?? Come on Paul. And says, "Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man...great my boldness...great my glorying: I am filled...I am..." (2Cor 7:2-4)....now, go and look up the Greek of corrupted, wrong and defraud: they all don't escaped Robbed or taking wages....next....."For I suppose I was in nothing behind the very chiefest apostles" (2Cor 11:5). Come on Paul, don't exalt yourself now. (kidding). Oh and another of Paul's statements, "that which I speak, I speak not after the Lord, but as it were IN FOLLY (foolishly), in this confidence of boasting. Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I WILL GLORY ALSO" (2Corinthians 11:17-18). Then, "I speak foolishly" in verse 21. Then he gets on a soap box, with some extra bricks for elevation and rants his experience in verses 24-28. ALL ABOUT HIM HIM HIM. Now there are your FEW scriptures proving the point of Him speaking of himself. Now OBVIOUSLY, I must keep in mind that these are merely true characteristics of a Letter. Yea yea, but JESUS said, those who claim themselves seek their own glory. When will the Very words of Jesus be upheld? Actually that entire chapter of 11 is about Paul.... What I'm getting at, he is the ONLY writer who uplifts himself. "Are they ministers of Christ? (I SPEAK AS A FOOL [his words now]) I AM MORE...." and all about what he's been through. [2Cor 11:23-28]. Paul actually goes on exalting himself, abasing himself and back and forth and AGAIN, if you don't see Paul is Speaking of himself than we have different bibles. And I'm a solely Rotherham, Youngs, and king james myself so I stay with a close to literal translation. It's almost as if Paul was writing to the Gentiles to follow him and read his epistles and that's the way to Christ (And those words almost certify the theory of Paul being the first pope....hmmm....he does sound popish). "be followers together of me..."(Phil 3:17) --- "Be ye followers of me, even as I also of Christ" (1Cor 11:1) --- "I beseech you, be ye followers of me" (1Cor 4:16).... Okay I know VERY little of cathlocism, and to each it's own, but this sounds like a pope. "Followers of Paul"???. And Jesus said, "Pick up your cross and to follow ME (Jesus)" Luke 9:23. Who is the TRUE shepherd we are to FOLLOW (John 10)?? Jus saying....Paul said words, JESUS Said. "for if i have boasted any thing to of you, i am not ashamed...I rejoice that I have confidence" (2Cor 7:14,16) Now I can finish this now; IM JUST SHOWING A FEW WRITINGS OF PAUL WHERE HE STATES HIMSELF, yes, "Excessively". For him to say follow me, multiple times, when Jesus says the same thing, its shaken me. I've started reading Rays paper on James and Paul. So give me time. So yea, there are the scriptures. 

And if I can't trust the word of God....how did Paul connect to the word of God???? I surely trust an believe Peter, James and Johns accounts and writing, I trust the gospels, the promises of the Torah, the prophets, even The mystery of the Book of the Revelations OF JESUS CHRIST. This was about Paul...and Jesus is before Paul in my faith. Actually Jesus teachings in the gospels are fairly different than Paul's epistles. So it's not like, without Paul, there is no scripture. Not true at all. The gospels and the writings of the Psalms is enough actually. But God has blessed with His word to be filled, as someone said before. And I receive that. Grace and peace to all.

Dave in Tenn:
Did Paul boast? 

When I read these scriptures at age 16 or so, I did not like Paul much either.  I kept reading them through my late teens and twenties, still no seeing what was there.  Recently, I read them again and saw something quite different.  There's more preceding these that give even more 'weight' to what I saw, but I'll start here.  The verses are from various translations because I looked at several to verify the meaning and could not always remember which one I had used previously.  The italics are my attempt at a paraphrase.  Maybe this will help.

2Co 11:16  I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.

Don't think of me as a fool.  But if you do, take what I'm saying as the words of a fool so I can boast a little too (like those mentioned in preceding verses).

2Co 11:17  That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.

What I'm about to say, I don't say it like the Lord would have us talk, but foolishly like the boasting I've been talking about for two chapters now.

2Co 11:18  Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
2Co 11:19  For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.

Since others seem to glory in their flesh, I'm going to do it too--speaking as a fool.  You enjoy their boasting, being, of course, so very wise yourselves.   ;)

2Co 11:20  For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

You put up with it if a man brings you into bondage, or eats you for lunch, or takes from you, or exalts himself, or smacks you on the face.

2Co 11:21  I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.

I'm talking to you about disparagement as if we had been the ones doing it.  But if they dared to do it, then let me do it too, speaking as a fool.
 
2Co 11:22  Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. 

Did they tell you they were Hebrews?  Well, so am I (truly).  Are they Israelites?  Me too (truly).  Are they the seed of Abraham?  So am I (truly).   The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, Who is blessed for the eons, is aware that I am not lying.  I am ALL these things, and you are not.  How's that for some disparaging?

2Co 11:23  Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more;

Are they ministers of Christ?  (Remember...I'm speaking as a fool.  I've already called them false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ.   2Co 11:14,15 And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.  It is no great thing, then, if his servants also are being transfigured as dispensers of righteousness - whose consummation shall be according to their acts.

Well, I AM a minister of Christ doing an imitation of their boasting.

in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24  Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25  Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26  In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27  In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28  Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Co 11:29  Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2Co 11:30  If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

I've been through an awful lot in the course of ministry.  If I'm being forced to 'glory', then I'll glory about my weaknesses.

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, Who is blessed for the eons, is aware that I am not lying.

Do you think it's a remote possibility that just perchance those false apostles, and fraudulent workers are?

2Co 11:32 In Damascus the ethnarch of Aretas, the king, garrisoned the city of the Damascenes, wanting to arrest me, "
2Co 11:33 and I am lowered in a wicker basket through a window through the wall, and escaped his hands."

That time I got away.   ;)

2Co 12:1 If boasting must be, though it is not expedient, indeed, yet I shall also be coming to apparitions and revelations of the Lord.

If I'm still being 'forced' to boast, though it's not easy to keep this up, let me tell about visions and revelations of the Lord.

2Co 12:2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware - God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven. "
2Co 12:3 And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware - God is aware)
2Co 12:4 that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak. "
2Co 12:5 Over such a one I shall be boasting; yet over myself I shall not be boasting, except in my infirmities.

Snatched away...got that?  Nothing to 'boast' about being 'snatched away'.  I'll speak of him as if he wasn't me.  The 'me' that's writing to you I won't boast about, except about my weakness.

2Co 12:6  For if I had a desire to take credit to myself, it would not be foolish, for I would be saying what is true: but I will not, for fear that I might seem to any man more than he sees me to be, or has word from me that I am.

If I ever had the desire to boast, I wouldn't be talking nonsense.  I'd be telling you what is true about these things.  But I won't boast for fear I would be making myself seem to be something a man can't tell by watching me or reading me.

2Co 12:7  And because the revelations were so very great, in order that I might not be overmuch lifted up, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, one sent from Satan to give me pain.
2Co 12:8  And about this thing I made request to the Lord three times that it might be taken away from me.
2Co 12:9  And he said to me, My grace is enough for you, for my power is made complete in what is feeble. Most gladly, then, will I take pride in my feeble body, so that the power of Christ may be on me.

The revelations were so great...got it?

2Co 12:10  So I take pleasure in being feeble, in unkind words, in needs, in cruel attacks, in troubles, on account of Christ: for when I am feeble, then am I strong.

2Co 12:11  I have been forced by you to become foolish, though it was right for my praise to have come from you: for in no way was I less than the chief of the Apostles, though I am nothing.

You've made me talk this way, acting like an idiot bragging on myself.  It's good to hear YOU say good things about me, however, because when I was with you, I was not less than the chief of the Apostles, even though I'm nothing.


Paul spoke as a fool--imitating those "false apostles and fraudulent workers" to differentiate himself (AND the Chief of the Apostles, for that matter) from them.  I have been around long enough to know that some 'universalists' think they are all the same.  If you think they are all the same, then you do not know what the gospel of the kingdom is--the same gospel preached (and lived) by Christ, Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Jude.

Here's some required reading, I believe.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html  What is the Gospel of the Kingdom?

So did Paul boast?  Concerning himself, I think only when he was doing an imitation of those who did.   

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