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Author Topic: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?  (Read 11371 times)

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Rene

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Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2012, 02:58:27 PM »

We read in Heb 11:39-40, "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."

Was this promise these faithful saints didn't receive in this verse that of receiving the Holy Spirit or that of obtaining the first resurrection after death? 


doug,

Moses was one of the "faithful" ones mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11, and guess what?  God did not even allow Moses into the "Promise Land" even though Moses was a great "deliverer" of God's people.  Just think about that.  If Moses was not even allowed in the "physical" Promised Land, why would it be so hard to believe that he may not be in the 1st resurrection, which is to me a "spiritual" Promised Land?  Just something to think about.

René

Heb. 11:24-29 - "By faith Moses, becoming great, disowns the term "son of Pharaoh's daughter, referring rather to be maltreated with  the people of God than to have a temporary enjoyment of sin, deeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt, for he looked away to the reward. By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the fury of the king, for he is staunch as seeing the Invisible. By faith he has the passover made and the pouring of blood against the door jambs, lest the exterminator of the first-born  may come into contact with them. By faith they crossed the Red Sea as through dry land, attempting which, the Egyptians were swallowed up.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2012, 03:13:19 PM »

Why do some seem to see this as a bad thing that the Patriarchs and John are not first?  (Actually, I think I know, but this thread is getting mighty long and cumbersome and far away from its beginning).  They were good for "US" in that what they lived was for our admonition.  Why is it bad that "we" should be able to be good for them?  Isn't that the entire point of Judgement?  Hebrews 11 is GOOD NEWS for EVERYBODY who believes.  That's the way I read it, and I don't desire to "unread" it some other way.

If I'm missing the point of the discussion, sorry about that.



 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Gina

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Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2012, 03:39:55 PM »

Maybe this will help?

from Twelve God-Given Truths:

How many things written in the prophets concerning the life, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus did the disciples understand? "NONE."

At Jesus’ last meeting after His resurrection with His apostles we read:

"And He said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you while I was yet with you [words which they never understood] that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses in the prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning Me [in other words, the entire Hebrew Scriptures]. Then [When? ‘THEN.’ Not during their three and one half years of learning at His feet? NO, ‘then’] opened He their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures [ALL of the Scriptures]" (Luke 24:44-45).
Why did Jesus reveal His message, His gospel, His kingdom, His word to so very few people? Christ’s answer is much harder for most to believe than the parables themselves:

"And the disciples came, and said unto Him, WHY speak You unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven [not at that precise time, but eventually, after His resurrection] but to them it is not given [not then OR later]. For whosoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever has not, from him shall be taken away even that he has [another parable answers the reason for parables]. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand [here Jesus gives us a parable within a riddle].

"And in them [and in all future generations down through the centuries, save a very small elect few] is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which says, By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand, and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart [the people’s heart in Isaiah’s day, Christ’s day, through the generations, and in our day] is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should HEAL them [SAVE them].
"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, that many prophets and righteous men [all the patriarchs of the Old Testament] have desired to see those things which you see, and have NOT seen them, and to hear those things which you hear, and have NOT heard them" (Matt. 13:10-17).

I doubt that many of my readers are comprehending the marvelous truths contained in the above passages. The prophets THEMSELVES (even Isaiah himself), desired to see these things, but did NOT see them. All of the Apostles and New Testament writers understood that the patriarchs of old including the prophets themselves, did not understand their own prophesies, therefore they were not converted, and they are not saved. These things are for those who come after Christ, not before:

"Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto YOU [not unto them!]: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the suffering of Christ, and the glory that should follow [not come BEFORE, in their day and time].

"Unto whom it was revealed, that NOT unto themselves, but unto US they did minister [‘for OUR admonition upon whom the ends of the ages are come, I Cor. 10:11] the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto YOU at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:10-13).
Therefore I repeat once more:

"And these all [all the saints and all the prophets, Ver. 32], having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT the promise: God having provided some better thing FOR US, that they without US should NOT be made perfect [be saved]" (Heb. 11:39-40).

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

(Emphasis mine)
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Marky Mark

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Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2012, 03:54:19 PM »


Quote
I don't think Matthew 11:11 is stating that John will not be in the first resurrection. Jesus is saying that as great as John is (as a mortal imperfect man) the least in the Kingdom of heaven will be even greater. Jesus is making a comparison statement here. A comparison of how even though John was great as a carnal minded human the spiritual greatness of those in the kingdom of heaven is greater than all he did .


Psa 119:160  The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever.

Isa 28:10  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:





Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women [the church of the letter/law..babylon..spiritually speaking] there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. [because the elect will have been Spiritually converted unto His Truth,John was not]


Why are the least greater than John?


Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith [of Jesus Christ] came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.


The Scriptures do not lie...

Peace...Mark
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whyisthatso

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Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2012, 09:19:45 PM »

   Kat, I'm sorry but I cannot believe that the spirit that is in man is the same as the animal. I know that we share the same "breath" of life and perish the same, but the spirit that Paul speaks of is another spirit. There would be no point in telling us that we have a breath in us. The words may have virtually the same meaning but they do not mean the same thing.  The spirit that is in us is the one that God takes back when we die. And whatever it is , it is all that we are. Our spirit is what and who we really are.

        "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he"             

 The words "spirit", "mind"  "heart" and "thought" are interchangable, because they are the same essence.   This is the part of our being that is not physical.  You cant see me, and I cant see you. Oh, yes, we can make outside observations, but we can't really see each other. And no two people, no matter how intimately close they are can ever "know" one another in this flesh.
       This spirit in us is what connects us to God. It is how He knows all there is to know about us. It is what is with us always, and never leaves us. We talk to ourselves constantly, never ceasing night and day. Only at night  do we take a break, so we watch picture shows instead.  Even when some of this spirit spills out of our mouths, we continue to think ( right or wrong ).

       " Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks "


        Here is where our problem lies. We do not think right. We cannot do right, until we can think right. To think right is "righteousnss".  WHY was Abel "righteous" ?,  I mean, really , what did he do that we know of.  He made a better sacrifice to God.  WHY, because he thought right, He know what God wanted. And God caused him to think right.  He had Gods Spirit. This is where the "church" began.  The Spirit of God is not limited in any way. The day of Penticost was a "show" more than anything else, to fullfill prophecy, to make a statement, to mark a milestone, to place a marker on the path of the journey of the Great Plan.  We cannot know Gods will, until we know how God thinks..... until we think as He does.

( and not to get off subject but the story of Cain and Abel is for our learning . It is the first picture of Gods "church"  and the false system that persecutes us )

       This is what God is doing with us. He is changing our minds.  This is what " repentance" is......a changing of the mind.  This is a process .  He gives us repentance, its not something we do.   
 
           "Be not conformed to this word ( this worlds way of thinking), but be transformed by the renewing of your mind "

         All throughout the scriptures , this is the central message. God gave us (man) a carnal mind. A mind, a heart, a spirit, that cannot please God, it is hostile towards Him.  The purpose for this is another subject, but it is all for our good and His Glory.  The most intimate part of our being is our thoughts.  Did you ever try telling someone HOW to think ?  ALL strife, conflict and war , the history of the "world" , is the result of this problem.

          "....the way of peace they have not know "

        The spirit that is in man, is the part of us that is not physical. It is what connects us to God so that He can change us from the inside out.  Its an inside job.  It is our "heart", our "mind", our thoughts.......our "spirit"
    When a person has unexplainable skill or insight, we say they are "inspired" ( INtered spirit ), when a person dies, we say they "expired" ( EXITed spirit ).  Our spirit is who and what we really are. It is what survives after death, and only because God keeps it, takes it back.  It is all we will take with us to our grave, because it is all that we are.     

       Just some food for thought                                                                David

     
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doug

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Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
« Reply #65 on: June 01, 2012, 09:39:56 PM »

Ahhhhh.... The deeper and more painful root of an infected molar.... the harder it is to extract!  Praise the Lord the tooth has been extracted now!!

This Old Testament Saints, Elect and the 1st resurrection issue was the last (and by far the most difficult for me) hurdle that I had to yet jump over.

I read and re-read this thread and concepts started coming together and like JFK said - most of my comments were non-sensible (but at the time they seemed to be for me).  Where I started to gain some understanding was through the pulling of the many scriptures together so that they are in one place (this thread) for comparison.  That's undoubtedly the best way for me to comprehend.  thanks guys... you went all out for me! 

I hope that beside me, all who contributed did gain at least some new understanding to all of the scriptures, concepts and ideas posted.  God's word doesn't return void!

Like Dave in Tn said, this thread is getting too long and cumbersome... so I will rest my fingers for awhile.

A heart felt thanks to all who have contributed to my "progressive revelation"... I have really learned from everybody's input.

Time for partyin' --- I'll get out the grill and throw on some shish kabobs....
If I were with you all now I would give you a great big hug!

with love to all, doug

p.s.  We are so blessed... because of all christiandom "out there", do not know these truths!!


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Kat

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Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
« Reply #66 on: June 01, 2012, 10:40:01 PM »


Okay whyisthatso, I can see that you have your own way of thinking about these things and that's fine. I see no point in continuing this discussion, that is why we have the rules, I will put here what I am speaking of in particular.

This is not the place to decide if you agree with the teaching of L.Ray Smith, but a place you can retreat to when you do.

This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

If you seriously disagree with Ray.

If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere
.

We do not want confusion here that is the reason for the rules. Maybe you should re-study the articles that are taught on the BT page to see if you do share our beliefs, as you seem to have a difference of opinion on these things we have been discussing. We are not trying to convince anyone to believe as we do, but why would someone want to fellowship with a group that they do not agree with?

Amo 3:3  Can two walk together unless they are agreed?

Eph 4:1-3  I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the calling with which you are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

mercy, peace and love
Kat




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whyisthatso

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Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
« Reply #67 on: June 01, 2012, 11:49:47 PM »

       Thank you Kat for your time, patience and love. I did not come here to disrupt this forum in any way.  I was sent here for a purpose, to direct your thinking.  You are on the right road, but have a ways to go. And thank you for underlining " people of like mind ", to enforce my words.  My work is done here.


                                                                                                        in peace,  David
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Did Jesus use the words Gehenna and Hades?
« Reply #68 on: June 02, 2012, 01:06:06 AM »

Wasco55, I hope your question was sufficiently answered.   :D

Doug, I'm glad the bulb turned on.   

If there are any unanswered questions, please start a new thread.   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.
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