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if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...

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newgene87:

--- Quote from: Revilonivek on August 22, 2012, 09:02:29 PM ---That is the thing. I am starting to doubt the validity of the scriptures. What if jewish people are as carnal as other gentiles are, who thinks they are the chosen people  of God than any other races that existed. Just like other religions think the same way.   I am trying to hold on to it but I am doubting it big time. That is why I need you guys to help me get an anchor. A good reason to hold on.

Here's one of several examples, I doubt the validity of Satan. It is probably added by religion to scare the pants off the masses. If you read how the scriptures describe Satan to do,   I mean Satan's job description in the scriptures are described as what Desire is and does.. The bible says Satan is the tempter, and we should resist and he will flee away. Satan seems to always tempt when there is Desire about something, good or bad.  for example, if I resist something I desire, good or bad, it will flee. Maybe the people of the OT did not understand how the brain works, or what desire is, so they  blame it on Satan when it is really Desire that did it.

I know too much... too much history. too much. do you guys know how the name Israel came to be? Israel had pagan origins related to the creation of the name.  It's kind of interesting. really.


If you guys are willing to help me out. That would be great because I def need an anchor. There are too many that is slowly breaking down my old anchor. What if life is what it is? no religion is right? what if we are just here to learn, and to love one another despite indifferences. maybe God is really different from what Jews say he is. Did you even know that Jews believe in a different version of the messiah and how the uptopia will be like than Christianity does. They believe to be a superior race and will rule over the gentiles.  Do you guys have any experience that you have beyond no doubt that God of the scriptures exist and is the correct one?  what are your experiences. I would love to hear it.

--- End quote ---

As far as the "Jewish" people, or better yet, the "the people of Israel" - one source of the problem started after the conquest under Joshua leading till after his death. Upon his death

Judges 2:11-13
And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord, and served Baalim: 12 And they forsook the Lord God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the Lord to anger. 13 And they forsook the Lord, and served Baal and Ashtaroth.

Yes, they were carnal as can be. And they were NOT an holy people to the Lord. From then on, they were not peculiar, holy, and "all of Moses". They served GODS all around them, brought in their teachings (immortal soul, hell, etc) and this led up ALL throughout history, with Jesus speaking in parables that no one understood, to the apostles spreading the message of Jesus, to people STILL heeding gods and then it effected translators of the scriptures and yea, not so good

I know first hand how you feel Denise. We talked before :). Since then, I will admit, Ray opened my mind. My advice is, Start with his paper, "Origin of Endless Punishment" - read the ENTIRE PAPER and the next 3. Ray goes into DEPTH how Christianity, even JUDAISM, Jews throughout history, Greeks, Romans, ALL beliefs, religions, and teachings find their HERITAGE AND SOURCE from Egypt. I could explain it but Ray NAILS the truth on this matter. "SCRIPTURES" are not the problem. Truly, the "validity" of the "bible" can not be trusted, but there's a way to grasp the truth from the scriptures. From our conversations, I truly know how you feel deep inside. And even I had a mistrust in the "Validity of Ray" but Ray taught me a WHOLE NEW WORLD of the Scriptures where I can trust my bible now and stay faithful to a sound doctrine. I will be praying for you. Truly, We all love you and pray for your peace in Truth. Only...

Ephesians 4:21
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus

It's hard to find truth when youve run astray from this doctrine, to that teaching, to this book and that book. Without a foundation, the house will fall soon. I can say since our conversation, the TRUTH is IN Jesus. And I discovered that after putting time in reading ALL of those papers on Hell.... Scriptures CAN BE trusted.

Eugene

lilitalienboi16:

--- Quote from: Revilonivek on August 22, 2012, 09:02:29 PM ---That is the thing. I am starting to doubt the validity of the scriptures. What if jewish people are as carnal as other gentiles are, who thinks they are the chosen people  of God than any other races that existed. Just like other religions think the same way.   I am trying to hold on to it but I am doubting it big time. That is why I need you guys to help me get an anchor. A good reason to hold on.

Here's one of several examples, I doubt the validity of Satan. It is probably added by religion to scare the pants off the masses. If you read how the scriptures describe Satan to do,   I mean Satan's job description in the scriptures are described as what Desire is and does.. The bible says Satan is the tempter, and we should resist and he will flee away. Satan seems to always tempt when there is Desire about something, good or bad.  for example, if I resist something I desire, good or bad, it will flee. Maybe the people of the OT did not understand how the brain works, or what desire is, so they  blame it on Satan when it is really Desire that did it.

I know too much... too much history. too much. do you guys know how the name Israel came to be? Israel had pagan origins related to the creation of the name.  It's kind of interesting. really.


If you guys are willing to help me out. That would be great because I def need an anchor. There are too many that is slowly breaking down my old anchor. What if life is what it is? no religion is right? what if we are just here to learn, and to love one another despite indifferences. maybe God is really different from what Jews say he is. Did you even know that Jews believe in a different version of the messiah and how the uptopia will be like than Christianity does. They believe to be a superior race and will rule over the gentiles.  Do you guys have any experience that you have beyond no doubt that God of the scriptures exist and is the correct one?  what are your experiences. I would love to hear it.

--- End quote ---

That's good man. Don't tell us though, Tell whoever you think is "up there" listening. Just be honest with this unknown God. Tell Him how you feel.

Tell Him you doubt Him. You're losing your faith.

No one can be an anchor for you. You are shifting your trust from God to that of mortal man and there is no hope in mortal man.

If I were you, I would just let it go. Get mad, get angry. Be real. Be real with yourself, be real with this "god." If He's even there right? Heck, I say, if this is going to consume you, it will. If your faith is to be tried and refined right here, through this, then it will.

The outcome will be as it should be. Whether you believe in God or not, how could it be otherwise? If it were otherwise, we wouldn't have the outcome to talk about.

No amount of any other person's experience is going to convince you. This is something between you and the big man upstairs, if He's even there.

The greatest thing I learned with God, is to be real. He sees right through you, if He's there of course. So why try and pertend or talk to yourself like He's somehow out of the loop? Why come to us? I say, if you're angry at God then tell Him. Feel like cursing up a storm at Him? Then do it. Curse and swear. You'll regret it when He comes around to pull you by the pants but do it for now, It's what you need. BE HUMAN. When I'm angry, I do it. I'm not going to hide who I am to God, If He's there, He's seeing right through me anyway.

I think those are the best words of wisdom I can give you.

I have had a personal experience that solidified in my mind, beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is real, that Jesus Christ is the Lord but what does it mean to you? It's nothing but a story to you, you didn't experience, hear, feel what I did. For all you know and what you're probably thinking is I'm making it up. I never had an experience did I? You can't be certain at all and I don't blame you or anyone for doubting anything anyone else says about an "experience."

I know i'm probably being a bit unorthodox here but I think sometimes we get caught up in "formalities" with God when we forget that the most important thing, more important then all the rituals, spiritual laws, knowledge, doctrins, preaching, witnessing etc.. Is BEING REAL, BEING HUMAN. That includes being real with GOD.

Well, I hope this helps you honeslty, it might be in your face, bold, frank and blunt but... eh, it's what I feel lead to tell you.

God bless and good luck,

Alex

lilitalienboi16:
For the slavery reference;

I did read, on another apologetics website for Christianity that the form of slavery in the old testament that the jews had going on in isreal was more of an indebted servitude and not the kind of slavery you might be thinking that plagued america for much of her childhood.

Not sure if you heard that before and if it's killing you, it might be worth googling and see what you can find about it. Look at both sides of the coin my friend because we all have the same information, it's how we look at that information that dictates whether we will believe one way or another.

I know nothing more about this world than an Atheist, yet he and I, from the same information gathered, see two completely different worlds. Who is right, who is wrong? I can't tell ya buddy, that's something that if there is a God, then only He can.

Revilonivek:
I don't doubt who the Jews are of today. Like there are all kinds of Irish people, Chinese, and so on, we are mostly mutts nowadays anyways.  but for belief wise for all races/religion, Some are hardcore, some are lax, Some don't even bother with the religion, some do.  Of course I knew that the NT talks about spiritual Jews. They had to. If they are to recruit gentiles, they want the gentiles to feel that they can be spiritual Jews at heart, even if they are not Jews by blood. non Jews had an issue with that, and that is why Paul dealt with that the way he did.  He told them they can be spiritual Jew at heart and not have to be Jew by  blood. OT jews do not like gentiles very much.

my point is, I am talking about the mindset of the Jews of the Old  and New Testament. not the purity of bloodline of today. I am saying that Jews of OT  believe in a different messiah and how he would bring about peace. OT describes the messiah to be a "militant" ruler who will subdue all gentiles and Jews would be the superior race ruling over them. That is for another story. That is why the pharisees of NT have a hard time believing Jesus and kept waiting for the messiah. NT believes differently.

If you read the stories of the OT, they are not gentile friendly  and they are all for their race. The Jews leaders even had to put in rules/laws to help them treat the gentiles right.  It was that bad.

They are okay with gentile slavery and not Jewish slavery in their lands. I have a lot more evidence in bible how they treat their gentile slaves. They needed more laws for that to control them.  It is all in the bible.  That is of many reasons I doubt the validity of the scriptures.

I would understand how Moses came to be who he was. Think about it. I have seen it many times with pastors and sons in law who marry their daughters. They become mirror of the pastor and think just like him.

Take in account that Moses are like us. He think/feel like us.  Consider the history of Moses's birth, upbringing and how he found out the truth about his adoption. If you have ever met anyone who's dealt with adoption or experienced how step children are treated. You would understand. There are a lot of psychological trauma involved.

Okay. Moses found out he was adopted, It is only then he "started" to get mixed feelings and see his people in a different light.  We know how that felt. He left Egypt. He was taken in by a girl's family who he liked very much. he had his eye on her. It turns out she was the daughter of a priest who leads the Jews people in the valley with the Jewish faith. He wanted her, but of course he knew what he had to do to "win" the priest's heart and let him marry the priest' daughter. Since then, he felt he needed to please the father, so he can be on the good side.

I have seen this with churches. A friend's cousin, he was a good man, at one time, before all of that, you could tell him anything... you could be open.. but ever since marrying the pastor's daughter. He became close minded, he became defensive of the faith. He mirrored everything the pastor dad believed in. He became the pastor himself spiritually. He is training to take the pastor's place once the pastor gives up his position in church. He is next in line. He is the next leader of the church. Imagine the responsibility/stress to keep up appearance for the church. He had to lead, set a good example, impress the pastor, kiss his rear end, no matter what you think. Over time, it changes who you are.

We know that whatever information we take in, it becomes who we are.  For example, any religion/religious person, it's very clear, animals and animal lovers, it is all clear, music and music lovers, it is all clear what they love. Whatever information we take out, makes us  change who we are. The same applies for Moses.

Now...Naturally, as expected, Moses felt guilty that he left his Jewish people, family, relatives, friends, in Egypt when he left Egypt many years earlier. Family is the up-most motivator to make you do the right thing. Of course that is why he led them out of Egypt. It wasn't fair that he got out and not them. I would understand, i would do the same thing. He did it but not before he was "ready" as a leader, priest, etc. he had many wives, later on of course. Of course, for people to come help him if he ever need it, he had to get his people to agree, and of course He had to say that God commanded him to rescue them. they are all for it if God commands it. 

You should see many things that Moses say in the scriptures, it was ridiculous. He is as carnal as you and me. no different, he is not more holy than you and me. 

Moses said God is okay with Jews kidnapping women from the side of road so they can rape and take as wives. All because there were not enough wives for everyone from the previous war they had. That God commanded the slaughter of all male children, males, and all non virgins, and take only virgin girls that are virgins as wives. What is up with their issues virgins and non virgins. Non virgins deserve to live as much as the virgins did.

As for animal sacrifices. He says God says, word for word, what caught me is that it was so precise, to the letter. If you read carefully. at one point You will see that he says God commands you sacrifice fats of animals, but give the "meat" to the priesthood. That tell you something? People can't really eat fat, but they eat meat. They are all for free meat. Not everyone can afford lamb back then, but it was intense.. they said, even if you were unaware of your sin, and a priest or someone reminds you that you sinned, you are obliged to sacrifice an animal to get your sin forgiven anyway. God still condemns you even if you did not know you sinned? That is messed up to me.

If you read the bible, they give all the glory to God when something goes right with wars, their activities, etc, but condemns themselves whenever they lose the war because they "displeased" God. Like Babylon story. They got sent to Babylon all because they were a pest, preying on King Nebuchadnezzar trade routes to Egypt, his camels, etc. over and over and over. They were pushing King Nebuchadnezzar buttons to the point where King Nebuchadnezzar had enough of it, sent an army there. As a conclusion, Jews' Solomon temple and Jerusalem got destroyed and Jews got sent to Babylon as slaves.

Same goes for mindset of Christians of today.  they believe that if something goes wrong, it is because they sinned and displeased God and when they did something right, it is because they did something right. That is why Christians judge the poor people of their church. they dont' help as much as they do with the "good ones." they give the poor a hard time when they ask for help to help pay for rent, ulitity bills, and so on.  That is why they judge cities that got destroyed, like New Orleans. they say it is because God punished them. sometimes when something bad happens, it is what it is. Not because of what you did wrong. They believed in earthquakes, hurricanes, especially hurricanes, tornadoes, etc, to be punishment from God because of what they did wrong.

They did not know how and why tornadoes/hurricanes occur. they occur because of the right ingredients were given to create it.  Hurricanes happen only during hurricane prone season and not before.. Jews people did not know that, and say it is God's way of punishing people. They don't understand the science behind it. we do now.

Ray got me this far. He did.. he freed me from church, freed me from spiritual/religious prison. he freed me from indoctrination, freed me from scotomas that conditioned me to believe in what my parents, grandparents, etc taught me to believe. The perceived truth rather than what the truth is.

 I also know that people of past times did not have the right to question, for a very long long time. if they did, they would be persecuted and put to death. It is only recently that we are able to come out and be able to share our concerns. 

Look up Gaileco, he was persecuted by the church because the scriptures teach that the sun revolves around the earth, and Gaielco found evidence that this is not the case, and that the earth revolves around the Sun. They gave Galileo a hard time because they were so stuck , so indoctrinated that they don't care what the evidence says but what the scriptures say.  the perceived truth is a pain.

Ray is right about all traditions, heritage, etc coming from Egypt. They worship Baalism. Baalism just means you worship other gods. They worshipped Isis and Ra but of course they don't' say that in the bible specifically.

That is how they got their name Israel. Is is for Isis, goddess of Motherhood/fertility and mother to Horus. Ra is the sun god of the Egyptians, El just means High Lord. They also worshipped other gods in Babylon while they were there as well. That is why they believe a bit differently than their ancestors before Babylon. if you read stories before Babylon, and read stories of post Babylon, you will notice how it shifted somewhat. That is why you see hints of Christianity beliefs post Babylon than before Babylon. the religions in Babylon/Persian is another story.

Don't get me wrong. I do not doubt the validity of God. I do doubt the validity of the scriptures though.  What if scriptures are the perceived truth of Jews and not what the actual truth is.  I want to know how you know that God of the Jews are the right one, and all others are wrong? What if God is not what the Jews/scripture say he is. What if he is neutral, and wants us to be like him? neutral?

What if the Jews are as conditioned to believe as their ancestors did, without question and wrote about it, no matter what the evidence really says? What if they are as carnal as we are, they create their perception of God, and writes about it to fit their perception of God. many religions are like that? what  makes Jews any different? What makes them right about God?

Craig:
Denise, after reading and digesting your posts I have came to the following conclusion.

You don't really have a problem with God, your problem is with religion. 

If I was you I would seperate your thoughts from what religion teaches and seek God. Where do you find him? Well not with religion, it is an institution of man. Find him all around you, in your thoughts and heart.  Try and quit sweating about things you can't do anything about or even understand for that matter, forget the past; you can't do anything about it. Concentrate on the things you can control.  Be a good mother, wife, friend.  Do right to those around you but don't force your opinion on them. Seek good, do good, listen to the small still voice inside and live your life.  God will handle the rest.

Craig

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