> General Discussions
Satan's "Half" Lie/Truth??
indianabob:
--- Quote from: micah7:9 on August 27, 2012, 11:56:01 AM ---
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on August 26, 2012, 07:29:44 PM ---Adam and Eve knew they were not eat of this tree, that demonstrates a knowledge of good and evil. But knowledge is worthless unless one knows how to apply it to their lives. That's what I mean by discernment.
Satan said 'in that day you eat it you will be like God'. God said that man is becoming like Us, not in that day. God also makes reference to the tree of life, which is needed if one is to live. Satan makes no reference to how one is to live forever because he does not want them to.
So no, God does not say exactly what Satan says. Why is this even a point of debate?
--- End quote ---
I don't see where "Adam and Eve knew they were not eat of this tree, that demonstrates a knowledge of good and evil?" The man was commanded or charged not to eat, okay he had knowledge, but the woman was not told anything except what Adam said when he saw her? So where did the woman get this knowledge?
--- End quote ---
The woman was the responsibility of the man.
So she should have gotten the knowledge from "pillow talk" with her husband. You know how men have to brag and show off all their knowledge, well that has to be the reason.
Indiana Bob
newgene87:
Ray spoke on this in one of his writings but i can not find it :(. hopefully someone can. He mentioned that "Ye" refers to "you all" speaking of more than one person. or an irregular pural of thou. so with that in mind...
maybe it's something to, "...he (the serpent) said unto the woman". and not to the man (hmmmmm....)
"Yea, hath God said, YE shall not eat of every tree of the garden.?" And the woman said unto the serpent, WE may eat..." {and then...}..."...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, AND GAVE ALSO UNTO HER husband WITH HER; and he did eat" (Gen 3:1-2, 6)
"paying attention to the words" is like my favorite method now. As we can see, Adam WAS with her, but it was the Serpent that spoke to the woman first. maybe because she was "the weaker vessell" (??) [1 Pet 3:7]
Back to them having knowledge deal...I mean how could they really have "knowledge" when it was "knowledge" or better yet, "sense or perception" that was ONLY from that Tree? Well from the words of Ray, from the 2nd paper in the Lake of Fire series
It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God;" and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE,) a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:
"And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).
Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!
I was reminded of two scriptures in Job containing this thought -
"Who is this that darkens counsel by words WITHOUT knowledge? (Job 38:2)
"Willing to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. (1 Timothy 1:7)
and these verses are in DIRECT relation to the words of the woman,
"and the woman said to the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden (and she missed when God said, "mayest eat FREELY" 2:16); but of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ye shall not eat of it, and ye shall not touch it, lest ye die (God said, "DYING, thou shall die" 2:17)" (Genesis 3:2-3) -- she omitted "eat freely" and added "shall not touch it, lest ye die"
surely, SHE HAD WORDS WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE AND DESIRING TO TELL THE SERPENT OF THE LAW OF GOD, NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT SHE WAS SAYING. Adam stood there fooled as well, cause he didnt know either. he had LIFE (or the "breath of life") without knowledge. Just as Job, the Woman - "...hath spoken without knowledge, and his (her) words were without wisdom. (Job 34:35). and it falls back on that state of man..."OH THAT THERE WERE SUCH AN HEART IN THEM, THEY THEY WOULD FEAR ME, AND KEEP ALL MY COMMANDMENTS ALWAYS" (Deuteronomy 5:29). Maybe the serpent knew that the Man would easily do what the woman was doing, out of fervent love for her.
Now this was a revelation JUST NOW typing all this. I would love some critiques and hopefully i stayed faithful to the scriptures. It is possible to have words without knowledge, as seen in those scriptures. And Adam was right along with her, just seems the target was the Woman, and she was beguiled. I dont understand HOW or WHY they would be APART from each other. As said at the end of chapter 2, he was to... "CLEAVE unto his wife". and even he sayed, "The woman whom Thou didst place with me--she hath given to me of the tree--and I do eat.'
well this is just my thinking and again, "paying attention to the words".
Eugene
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: newgene87 on August 27, 2012, 07:44:06 PM ---surely, SHE HAD WORDS WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE AND DESIRING TO TELL THE SERPENT OF THE LAW OF GOD, NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT SHE WAS SAYING.
--- End quote ---
The Lord confronted Job in Job 38 by asking, rhetorically, who gives counsel without knowledge. That is not like Eve at all.
Eve knew (as in had knowledge of) that fact she was not to eat of the tree of knowledge. That is a form of knowing right from wrong. But Eve and Adam both desired the fruit of the tree more than they desired to obey God.
Adam and Eve gave into their carnal flesh. And it was only after they partook of the fruit, and 'looked back', that they saw themselves for what they are [the Beast] and were ashamed.
All the stories in the Bible are the same, every last one of them, from Genesis to Revelation. Just like all the parables told by Jesus are the same. Same message, different time/place/people.
newgene87:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on August 27, 2012, 08:52:39 PM ---
The Lord confronted Job in Job 38 by asking, rhetorically, who gives counsel without knowledge. That is not like Eve at all.
--- End quote ---
So i'm guessing in other parts, his friends were saying something rhetorical?
"Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain; he multiplieth words without knowledge." (Job 35:16) --- and regarding in Vain, you see she omitted "eat FREELY of all the trees" and then added, "shall not touch, lest you die" [adding and taking away?]. she opened her mouth in vain....
"Then Job answered the LORD, and said...Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not." (Job 42:1-3)
Even Ray said it was required for them to take the first step into becoming the image of God by partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. so you're saying they had knowledge of right (good) and wrong (evil) BEFORE they ate?
I'm still not seeing how they had a "knowledge (perception, sense)" of something - before they partook of the only tree which had that needed knowledge (as Ray said). And then it's not seen that scripture declares people to have words without knowledge? They "heard" what God said, but how could they "understand to keep it" seeing, (1) they didnt have the heart and (2) it was God's intention to eat of it. Maybe the means for this to happen was for them to NOT have the knowledge needed for the commandment......well, a scriptural journey of "knowledge" and a "fool"
~ "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: FOOLS despise wisdom and INSTRUCTION (...shall not eat) (Pro 1:7)
~ "O that they had a heart, that they would fear me..." (Deut 5:29)
~ "The way of a FOOL is right in (her) own eyes (first part of Genesis 3:6); but he that is wise hearkens unto counsel" (Pro 12:15) ---- and who is he that "darkens counsel BY words without knowledge??
and
"For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge (Jer 4:22) -- this refers to people AFTER eating of the tree, so just imagine BEFORE eating.
But it's okay. I'll put that to rest. Still learning, still growing, still love the Scriptures. And Satan deceives. I pray to be Grounded in the Love of Christ to be more than Conquerers. Thanks :)
Eugene
John from Kentucky:
Jesus taught that sin comes from within us, from our hearts.
Eve sinned before she ate the fruit. She lusted for it, from her heart, when she looked upon it, before she ate.
Ray discusses that point in his 2nd Lake of Fire article, a little ways down from the top.
http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html
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