> General Discussions
Kingdom of the heavens suffers violence"
Gina:
Eugene, you ask good (read: challenging) questions. I love digging for the answers to your questions. For obvious reasons I'm always a little hesitant to answer the questions when I know Ray hasn't specifically addressed the subject.
You know, Ray spoke of the "Kingdom of the HeavenS" here:
--- Quote ---http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.msg49588.html -----------
HEAVEN OF THE HEAVENS
So what is the kingdom? We are the kingdom of God. We are the kingdom of the heavens. Where does God reside? In heaven. God resides in heaven, but it is not called the kingdom of heaven in the Greek, you can check Rotherham and all those, it’s kingdom of the heavens, plural. We are the temple of God. God resides in His temple God resides in heaven. We are the heaven in which God resides, where He dwells. But don’t get to haughty, because the Scriptures say, not even all the heaven of the heavens can contain Him.
2Chron 6:18 …Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!
But never the less it is true, He does dwell in the heavens. But they can’t even contain Him, He’s bigger than that. But He does dwell in His heavens, we are His heavens, we are His spiritual kingdom. But it does not yet appear what we shall be, we only have the earnest, down payment of His spirit.
Eph 1:14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
We have the down payment, but John says we will eventually see Him as He is, because we will be like Him. We will be like Jesus Christ.
1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
So we are the kingdom of God. Christ is going to return with a kingdom. What does He return with? What is the symbolism of how Christ returns? He returns on, what is He riding? A white horse. Is anybody with Him? An army. Are they walking? They are riding on white horses too.
Rev 19:14 And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
What is that army? The kingdom of God... IT'S US! We are coming with Him, He is going to gather US up. Gather up what? His army, His kingdom!
--- End quote ---
Someone above pointed out that John the Baptist suffered violence.
Jesus suffered violence. (Ray pointed out that Jesus was "mobbed" -- know what it means to be "mobbed"?)
Paul did a lot of violence.
It's also spiritual like someone else said above. Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. (Acts ch. 14)
But you specifically asked about this:
Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Some translations read: every man forces his OWN WAY into it.
But just like in Ray's fireman analogy, no one will get into the Kingdom ANY way or their OWN way, no; there's only ONE way anyone's entering and that is God's way - through Jesus Christ.
It also sounds like the people were so glad to be set free from Law of Moses that they were suddenly without restraint of any kind -- like caged animals just let loose.
Who knows -- maybe they thought to themselves (like Eve did), I'm gonna get in as quick as I can and I'm gonna take this shortcut, and I don't care if I trample on that person or elbow this person -- I'm getting in!
Was Jesus saying they were climbing up some other way: Truly, truly, I say to you, He that enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some OTHER WAY, the same is a thief and a robber. John 10:1
Maybe it would help to read the entire chapter of Luke 16:
1 And he said also to his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused to him that he had wasted his goods.
2 And he called him, and said to him, How is it that I hear this of you? give an account of your stewardship; for you may be no longer steward.
3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord takes away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.
4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
5 So he called every one of his lord's debtors to him, and said to the first, How much owe you to my lord?
6 And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said to him, Take your bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
7 Then said he to another, And how much owe you? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said to him, Take your bill, and write fourscore.
8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
9 And I say to you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when you fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
11 If therefore you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
12 And if you have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said to them, You are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knows your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one pronunciation mark of the law to fail.
18 Whoever puts away his wife, and marries another, commits adultery: and whoever marries her that is put away from her husband commits adultery.
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there.
27 Then he said, I pray you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brothers; that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Do you see anything surrounding the verse you're questioning that supports anything that anyone here has said?
And lastly, I believe the reason it doesn't say "the church suffered violence" is because there really wasn't a "church" in the truest sense of the word at that time. There was the "lost sheep of the house of Israel," there were synagogues, but not "churches." It was upon this rock (PETER) that Jesus would build His church (or the kingdom of the heavenS).
I hope that was of some assistance to you my dear son. :)
Gina:
--- Quote ---But if there was this such simplicity why is "The Rich Man and Lazarus" parable have such an LENGTHY explaination???
--- End quote ---
I second that.
But there is simplicity in Jesus Who is our rest. That's why none of us had to try to figure that parable out. It was just given to us. It is as if God said, Okay, you all just sit down, just relax, and this man Ray will explain to you the meaning of that parable.
Just like when Jesus instructed the starving multitudes to recline and then He took the loaves and fishes and blessed them and then handed them back to His disciples who were commissioned by Jesus to then feed it all to the multitudes. :)
We didn't have to lift a finger.
Dave in Tenn:
I think the answer is in the parable of the little kids.
Mat 11:16-19 Now to what shall I be likening this generation? Like is it to little boys and girls sitting in the markets, who, shouting to the others, are saying, 'We flute to you and you do not dance! We wail and you do not grieve!'"
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they are saying, 'A demon has he!'" The Son of Mankind came eating and drinking, and they are saying, 'Lo! a man gluttonous and a tippler, a tribute collectors' and sinners' friend!' And justified was Wisdom by her acts.
Poor little children. They try to call the shots, but the 'others' won't do what they say! :'( >:( Little Johnny the Baptist doesn't dance, and that Jesus kid doesn't grieve!! John has a demon, and Jesus is a glutton and a tippler and friends with bad people. I'm telling!! >:(
Sounds to me like 'bullying', petulance and 'name-calling' that just doesn't work on those two. "Oh boy, will they pay for that!"
Sound familiar? Ever been in the market with the fluters and wailers? Ever been a fluter or wailer?
Maybe that's the violence the Kingdom suffers. It's certainly been the violence I've suffered. It's also some of the violence I've caused other people to suffer.
When a passage confuses you, keep reading.
Gina:
The good news is, even though the Kingdom suffers violence against it and the violent take it by force:
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? Romans 8:31
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. (Matthew 16:18)
(Thanks for that, Dave. ;) )
onelovedread:
I like this thread as it has brought out some wonderful postings. And it has made me think about the process of understanding the word.
Ray in an email says:
--- Quote ---Unfortunately, we can not often learn the meaning of Scriptures from Strong's Lexicon. We learn from God by comparing Scripture with Scripture, spiritual with spiritual, and only then by the inspiration of His Spirit.
and in another email:
Now I have mediated on this grand theme for at least a few thousand hours.....
--- End quote ---
I find that challenging and inspiring. And added to that he (Ray) has left us such a wealth of teaching.
Dave wrote:"When a passage confuses you, keep reading." To that I add Ray's advice to meditate on it for several hours never forgetting to apply the 12 Truths to Understanding His Word.
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