> General Discussions
Did God forsake His Son in His last moments?
thewatchman:
--- Quote from: " Shorty " on February 23, 2013, 06:41:55 PM ---Watchman,
The way you phrased what you said makes it look as if Jesus was praying to Himself, ,,,why have You forsaken Me?". Jesus wasn't praying to Himself, He was praying the words the Father God caused Him to pray to the Father. Jesus is not His own Father. Yes, the Father and the Son are one, but think of it like an Orchestra -- there's one company of musicians made up of many members.
(Did you love that Enigma paper? I did.)
Gina
--- End quote ---
Yet John 5 says no-one has seen or heard of the Father.
newgene87:
--- Quote from: thewatchman on February 24, 2013, 01:27:43 AM ---
--- Quote from: " Shorty " on February 23, 2013, 06:41:55 PM ---Watchman,
The way you phrased what you said makes it look as if Jesus was praying to Himself, ,,,why have You forsaken Me?". Jesus wasn't praying to Himself, He was praying the words the Father God caused Him to pray to the Father. Jesus is not His own Father. Yes, the Father and the Son are one, but think of it like an Orchestra -- there's one company of musicians made up of many members.
(Did you love that Enigma paper? I did.)
Gina
--- End quote ---
Yet John 5 says no-one has seen or heard of the Father.
--- End quote ---
a little misquote there isnt it??? "...ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." (5:37) how does that refer to "no on" heard of the Father??
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: newgene87 on February 23, 2013, 07:57:16 PM ---
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on February 23, 2013, 06:42:19 PM ---
--- Quote from: " Shorty " on February 23, 2013, 11:00:45 AM ---Exactly. Why say it if it weren't true?
Isaiah 54:8 In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a little while. But with everlasting love I will have compassion on you," says the LORD, your Redeemer.
It was only for a little while. I don't know if this verse is any help, but if God the Father was angry, He wasn't angry with Jesus because Jesus didn't do anything deserving of God's wrath. But I imagine if it is true, God was angered by what He had to witness was happening to His Son. I don't think He wanted to forsake Him but He had to in order for death to come. But it was only for a little while. And of course, we all know that He redeemed Jesus from the grave.
My 2 cents.
--- End quote ---
That verse is referencing Israel, not Christ. Jesus was never forsaken.
John 8:29 The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him
--- End quote ---
"And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son" (Matt 2:15) ="When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son" (Hosea 11:1) ---Now Matthew has some explaining to do....or he doesnt cause he understand a principle....
Just as i said once before, "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind" (Rom 14:5)
--- End quote ---
Eugene, Matthew's passage has nothing to do with Isaiah 54...you're confusing the issue.
--- Quote from: newgene87 on February 23, 2013, 07:57:16 PM ---Again, thanks Shorty. That Isaiah 54 is just another scripture i never saw before, and using Paul and the Apostle's hermeneutics: there are alot of Scripture that Christ can "open our understanding" on and see it's applies to Christ.
thanks for everyone's viewpoint. thanks alot, i really appreciate it
Eugene
--- End quote ---
Eugene, if you really cared about hermeneutics in regards to Paul and the apostles, you wouldn't ignore their words when explaining the very passage you falsely claim as representing Christ. The very first verse in Isaiah 54 should be all we need to realize who is being spoken to and more importantly by Whom:
Isaiah 54:1 “Sing, O barren, You who have not borne! Break forth into singing, and cry aloud, You who have not labored with child! For more are the children of the desolate Than the children of the married woman,” says the Lord.
Paul himself quotes this very verse and explains the symbolism:
Gal 4:21-27 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic.
For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written: “Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband.”
Notice Paul's words: "corresponds to Jerusalem". Not Christ. Further proof within Isaiah 54:
Isaiah 54:4 "Do not fear, for you will not be ashamed; Neither be disgraced, for you will not be put to shame; For you will forget the shame of your youth, And will not remember the reproach of your widowhood anymore.
So through hermeneutics, we learn that Christ will 'forget the SHAME of His youth' and the 'REPROACH of His widowhood'? When has Christ ever been associated with shame and widowhood? This is what happens when we attempt to find scriptures to fit our pet theories instead of actually READING what the scriptures say.
Getting back to 'shame and widowhood'...who do we read of having these type of negative qualities?
Rev 18:4-8 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.
In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
It is a WOMAN being spoken to in Isaiah 54, symbolically. This WOMAN has the same attributes as the symbolic WOMAN in Revelation 18. That is what you would call a SPIRITUAL MATCH. Both these women refer to Israel aka the church, all groups of people who claim to serve the True Living God but spread false doctrine in His name.
You do not get a spiritual match from one verse referencing Christ as Israel and then assuming EVERY verse talking about Israel is talking about Christ. That's how you get crazy ideas like the Father forsaking His Son and other such nonsense.
Notice in the same passage of Isaiah 54 the Lord speaking of displaying His WRATH in turning away ('With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment' - Isa 54:8 ). Do we really need to go through all Ray's studies about how the Father never brought His wrath onto His Son?
And to top it all off, a few members mentioned the 'Solving the Enigma of God' paper...that paper explains WHO was actually speaking to who in Isaiah 54. It is Jehovah speaking to Israel. And if you have read this paper, you understand that Jehovah is 'Jesus Saves'. So it is Christ speaking, and not to Himself but to His people about where they've been spiritually and where they're going spiritually.
Marques
Gina:
I know exactly where my problem is coming from now. I thought about it all day. If this passage is not spurious, then it means that as Jesus hung on the cross dying and feeling very abandoned (that is, assuming He was feeling abandoned and not simply pretending -- the way He pretended with His disciples at one point), it means He was feeling abandoned by the Father. But since some believe He wasn't actually abandoned by His father, then he must've been delusional at that point. Because to say one thing in direct opposition to what was actually taking place would mean that Jesus was not speaking the truth. But the Word of God doesn't contradict.
I guess it's frightening also to think that our Lord had DOUBTS -- much like John the Baptist -- at least, in my mind that's the way it sounds -- or like Mary "Lord if you had been here my brother would not have died." (Jesus was directed by the Father to purposely forsake Mary and her brother Lazarus for days so that Lazarus could die, in order that Jesus could bring Him back to life!)
But anyway... I don't think that Jesus was delusional and I don't think that He had any doubt.
darren:
Did or did not GOD forsake His Son Jesus? We know according to Scripture Jesus did make the statement. Do we have scripture that tells us one way or the other if God forsaken His only Son Jesus? If not, then we are just speculating according to ones own belief.
Thanks.
d
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