> General Discussions
John 5:37
Rene:
--- Quote from: Ian 155 on May 08, 2014, 03:00:44 PM ---
Theo how do we expain the verse "I and the Father are one"
--- End quote ---
Ian,
Here is an email reply from Ray which was included at the end of the paper "Is God a Closed Trinity or an Open Family."
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
Ray Replies
Dear Brett:
I actually answer this in my paper on the trinity. Yet I get asked it continually. The reason is, I believe, that most are not willing to accept the answer I give FROM THE SCRIPTURES.
I am asked: "Is Jesus GOD or isn't He GOD?"
When I answer: "Yes, Jesus IS GOD," they are not satisfied with that answer they want to know: "Well then, as there is only ONE GOD, and if Jesus IS GOD, then Jesus must be THAT ONE GOD INCLUDING THE FATHER, and so by deduction, JESUS IS THE FATHER.
I'm not saying you, Bret, but there is no end to the times I get this posed to me. And yes, there are those religions that firmly believe that JESUS CHRIS IS GOD THE FATHER.
When the Pharisees accused Jesus of blaspheming because He said He was "The SON of God," Jesus reminded them that their own scriptures state that, "YE ARE GODS."
"I have said, YE ARE GODS; and all of you are CHILDREN OF THE MOST HIGH" (Psalm 82:6).
"For WE [Believers] ARE members of His [Jesus] body, of His flesh, and of His bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they TWO shall be ONE flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and THE CHURCH" (Eph. 5:31-32).
"That they ALL may be ONE [Who?--ALL. How many?--ONE] as you Father are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be ONE in US... And the glory which You gave to Me I have given them, that they may be ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE" (John 17:21-22).
This IS the Scripture that Jesus quoted. They didn't accept what Jesus said, and people will not accept what I say.
I'll try once more:
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be ONE FLESH" (Gen. 2:24).
How many people?--TWO. How many flesh?--ONE.
There the Scriptural answer!
"...that they may be ONE, even as WE [Jesus AND His Father] ARE O-N- E"!!!
HOW many Persons? Jesus & Father--TWO. HOW many GODS?--O-N-E G-O-D!!!
As a "husband and wife" ARE ONE, and "Jesus and His Church," ARE ONE, so also "Jesus and His Father," ARE ONE.
I don't what more I can say or how many times I can say it. I hope this helps.
God be with you,
Ray
theophilus:
--- Quote from: Ian 155 on May 08, 2014, 03:00:44 PM ---
--- Quote from: theophilus on May 07, 2014, 09:03:07 AM ---
--- Quote from: Kat on May 07, 2014, 06:53:18 AM ---
It appears to me the Son will continue to be lesser than his Father as he will subject himself to God; us much more. I don't see us dissolving in oneness with the God. I see us joining with God in oneness.
--- End quote ---
Theo how do we expain the verse "I and the Father are one"
--- End quote ---
I, for one, explain it as "The whole is the sum of its parts."
The phrase "I and the Father are one" is great support for those who believe that Jesus is the Father. However, Jesus didn't say "I and the Father are ONE AND THE SAME". This latter phrase has a different meaning, don't you think?
"I and the Father" involves two subjects in the sentence. Jesus could have plainly said "I AM THE FATHER" but didn't. "I and the Father" leaves Jesus' individuality and that of His Father separate. This is my lowly take on this sacred topic. May God forgive me if I'm wrong. Or better yet, may God give me revelation.
--- End quote ---
John from Kentucky:
There is only One God.
As Ray mentioned before me, if God the Father is a separate entity, with a separate personality, with a separate existence; and if Jesus is a separate entity, with a separate personality, and a separate existence; then you have two Gods.
But the Scriptures teach over and over again that there is One God.
If you believe in two Gods, then you are a pagan with heathen, false beliefs. It doesn't matter if the names of your gods are Father and Jesus, or Zeus and Apollo, or Wodin and Thor; you are deceived and do not believe in the One, True God.
The same if you believe in a trinity of three gods--father, son, and holy spirit---or all the other multiple gods of mankind---you are an ignorant pagan idol worshiper.
How do you pray to your false, multiple gods? Fifteen minutes to the Father, then fifteen minutes to the Son, so that they don't feel slighted?
I have studied this subject for several years. I have well over a hundred Scriptures to show there is only One God. But they despise the Word of God. They hate those who bring the Word of God. Jesus told us not to give something of value to those who do not or can not appreciate it.
If any are interested in Truth, then read the attached from Ray. Also read the end of Ray's article on his creed. Only Jesus is our teacher, and only He can open up ones understanding.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13157.0.html
AwesomeSavior:
So… God the Father is the only GOD… but then you have His created Son, the Lord Jesus Christ… So there are, in fact, two separate entities… Just as a husband and wife are ONE, but yet they are two separate entities. Just as Christ and His Church are ONE, but they are two separate entities. Am I correct?
Kat:
John, I don't think anybody here is saying that as the Father and Son have distinctions from one another would means then they are 2 Gods, that's your reasoning. They are one in mind and Spirit, just as the elect will also enter into this oneness with the Father and Son. We will become united by His Holy Spirit and have the same mind, not become the Father.
John 17:22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
The Father and Son have differences, Jesus Christ had a starting point when He came forth from the Father (John 8:42; 13:3; 16:27, 30). It is impossible for me to think of this eternal entity (the Father) as a being having a shape or form of some sort, as the Son does. There are many Scripture that also say the Son was begotten of the Father (John 1:14,18; 3:16, 18; Heb 11:17; 1 John 4:9), that beginning means He did not experience all that the Father knows before He came to be. Jesus clearly made the distinction between Himself and the Father, as the Son "was with" God the Father.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
v. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
He was in the Father "bosom" or embrace, like a father/mother lovingly holds their child. If Jesus is the Father how can He declare that His Father is greater than He is?
John 14:28 Ye heard that, I, said unto you—I go my way, and I come unto you,—Had ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, that I am going unto the Father, for, the Father, is, greater than I.
Now this relationship of Father and Son is not exactly like the physical that we have, as I do not believe that they are actually separate and acting independently. No, I think the Son is more like an extension of the Father, so He receives His direction directly and internally from the Father. Christ said He spoke what He 'heard' from the Father, but He also said nobody has ever heard His voice... that's because He has a natural internally connection (called the Holy Spirit), and perfect understanding with the Father.
John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him."
I think the Son is a connected part of the Father in that He is what the Father brought forth of Himself to do the work of this creation. It says He "is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens," His "right hand"... a parable or another way to explain their relationship. It could be that the Son is an extension of the Father sort of like our arm is an extension of us, everything about Him is totally controlled by the Father, but He is not everything that the Father is, there is much more to the Father. At least this is a way of looking at it that helps me understand what it could be like, and most importantly it does match with all the Scripture.
Heb 8:1 Now this is the sum of what is being said: Such a Chief Priest have we, Who is seated at the right of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
v. 2 a Minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle. which the Lord pitches, and not a man." (CLV)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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