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Eph.4:9
Ian 155:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on September 09, 2014, 04:09:46 PM ---I don't believe the heart is 'wicked'
--- End quote ---
You sound like my wife Dave ;D she was easily deceived
Dave in Tenn:
And you sound like my old preacher. He was fond of the KJV.
Ian 155:
"And you sound like my old preacher. He was fond of the KJV".
Well, yes it is fairly good, but Youngs and Rotherham are too
From H6117 GK; in the original sense, a knoll (as swelling up); in the denominative sense (transitively) fraudulent or (intransitively) tracked: - crooked, deceitful, polluted.[/size]
Hebrew translated verses
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceeding weak - who can know it?
Jer 16:12 and ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the stubbornness of his evil heart, so that ye hearken not unto Me;
Gen 6:5 And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled the sweet savour; and the LORD said in His heart: 'I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Psa 53:1 (53:1) For the Leader; upon Mahalath. Maschil of David.
(53:2) The fool hath said in his heart: 'There is no God'; they have dealt corruptly, and have done abominable iniquity; there is none that doeth good.
Psa 53:2 (53:3) God looked forth from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any man of understanding, that did seek after God.
Psa 53:3 (53:4) Every one of them is unclean, they are together become impure; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 53:4 (53:5) 'Shall not the workers of iniquity know it, who eat up My people as they eat bread, and call not upon God?'
Ecc 9:3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one event unto all; yea also, the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Mat 15:19 For G1063 out G1537 of the G3588 heart G2588 proceed G1831 evil G4190 thoughts,G1261 murders,G5408 adulteries,G3430 fornications,G4202 thefts, G2829 false witness,G5577 blasphemies: G988
Mar 7:21 For G1063 from within,G2081 out of G1537 the G3588 heart G2588 of men,G444 proceed G1607 evil G2556 thoughts,G1261 adulteries,G3430 fornications,G4202 murders,G5408
Heb 3:12 Take heed,G991 brethren,G80 lest G3379 there be G2071 in G1722 any G5100 of you G5216 an evil G4190 heart G2588 of unbelief,G570 in departing G868 from G575 the living G2198 God.G2316
Jas 1:14 But G1161 every man G1538 is tempted,G3985 when he is drawn away G1828 of G5259 his own G2398 lust,G1939 and G2532 enticed.G118
Pro 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool; but whoso walketh wisely, he shall escape.
MY CONCLUSION OUR HEARTS ARE WICKED WE NEED A SURGEON, NO MAN IS GOOD ONLY GOD, HAVE FAITH HE WILL GIVE YOU A NEW ONE ,HIS HEART, NOT YOUR OWN
I desperately want to call myself good, because I am ,in my own right I looked after my kids,watched them at sports, attended school meeting, trained young boxers, I suck in my wife's disparagement I feed the dogs I cook I drop of kids at school I,I,I but that does not make me what God wants that is what Man See's as Good ,God wants you and I to believe what he said thru his word is true and wants you to trust or have faith that it is true .
this may be a parable suiting the discussion
Luk 18:9 And he spake also unto certain who have been trusting in themselves that they were righteous, and have been despising the rest, this simile:
Luk 18:10 `Two men went up to the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer;
Luk 18:11 the Pharisee having stood by himself, thus prayed: God, I thank Thee that I am not as the rest of men, rapacious, unrighteous, adulterers, or even as this tax-gatherer;
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all things--as many as I possess.
Luk 18:13 `And the tax-gatherer, having stood afar off, would not even the eyes lift up to the heaven, but was smiting on his breast, saying, God be propitious to me--the sinner!
Luk 18:14 I say to you, this one went down declared righteous, to his house, rather than that one: for every one who is exalting himself shall be humbled, and he who is humbling himself shall be exalted.'
Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler questioned him, saying, `Good teacher, what having done--shall I inherit life age-during?'
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one is good, except One--God;
So in my opinion, You Dave ,are an unbeliever and you Dave despise Gods word and with your clever human knowledge based theories are trying to corrupt my understanding of these many scriptures into thinking that there is good in me despite what the word says.
FESS UP as the "Yanks" say Tell me your heart is wicked and it cannot be mended it must be replaced or I will not discuss this further with you. kjv or any version
even as I write, my evil heart is swelling up telling me that I know these scriptures
Dave in Tenn:
Ian, this started with your claim that the HEART was evil, after I reminded 'us' that GOOD also comes out of the heart. I provided scripture which said that out of the HEART both GOOD and EVIL come. Whatever is THERE comes out. I won't attempt to defend myself from anything else you have accused me of, because I have said NO SUCH THING.
Weak? Sick? TRUE. Wicked? Not as I understand the word 'wicked'.
Do you think your 'scripture' contradicts mine? I may not have supplied chapter and verse in what you call my "clever human understanding" but I certainly can, if you will admit they do not.
Just because 'out of the heart proceeds evil thoughts, etc' does not mean that out of the heart also proceed blessings, praise, repentance, thankfulness, love, joy, peace, etc. My 'argument' wasn't about good and evil of man, but about what the HEART is.
You accused me earlier of twisting your words to suit me. Does the pot call the kettle black?
You want me to confess my sins? You want me to admit that there is no good in me...that is IN MY FLESH? I have made a hundreds of posts related to that, and I've never said (nor even THOUGHT) what you are accusing me of. Not now, and never in my whole stupid life. You have absolutely NO IDEA how low I have sunk and from how deep in sin I have come to believe. I continue to have this war in my MEMBERS, but He is changing the INNER MAN. We are saved by Grace, through faith.
My only hope (and it's a hope scarcely a christian alive would extend to me) is CHRIST IN ME. And guess where His Spirit dwells? In my heart. You want to tell me there is still nothing good in my heart?
As I said, this has all been about what the heart IS, not how it might be described. You can call me whatever you like. I've been called worse by people who knew what they were talking about...in other words, people who judged me correctly.
I'll give you the opportunity for the last word, and I will not reply to it.
santgem:
Excerpt from Lake of Fire part 15-A (http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html):
IT ALL STARTS WITH THE HEART
ALL have sinned because it takes SPIRITUAL POWER not to sin. And God did not give our first parents that kind of spiritual power. They were spiritually weak as water.
We read in Jer. 17:9:
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
We know from Scripture that God "…creates EVIL…" (Isa. 45:7), but did He also create man’s heart in a "desperately wicked" state? No, He did not. God did not FORCE upon man, at creation, a "desperately WICKED" heart. Let’s read this verse from the Jewish Publication Society,
"The heart is deceitful above all things, And it is EXCEEDING WEAK—who can know it."
God did not create man’s heart "desperately wicked" as the KJV suggest, but rather He did create the human heart, "exceeding WEAK."
The seat of emotions and desires is the HEART. And God made the heart "exceeding WEAK." Man did not sin because he "freely willed" to sin, but because his heart was so exceedingly WEAK. That is why it takes next to nothing to persuade the heart of man to DESIRE SIN.
Jesus Christ Himself taught us that EVIL THOUGHTS, MURDERS, BLASPHEMIES, ADULTERIES, etc., all start, begin, originate, proceed, out from THE HEART.
Once the heart senses a feeling or emotion, it begins to desire something. These very thoughts of desire emanate out from the heart, seeking fulfillment. At this point in the process the will is manifested. It now becomes the driving force within you to accomplish the thoughts and emotions of the heart. The will is not the original instigator in this chain of events; it is not even the second in line, but rather the third.
* The will of man has no power until first his heart DESIRES,
* Second these desires are formed into actual THOUGHTS,
* Then at this third stage the will purposes to find fulfillment for all that is coming out of the heart.
The heart played a huge role in Adam’s decision to also partake of the forbidden fruit. In I Tim. 2:14 we read this:
"And Adam was NOT deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
Why did Adam sin if he was NOT deceived as his wife was? Again, the answer goes back to THE HEART.
Adam LOVED his wife dearly. He never wanted to be separated from her. But he knew that the wages of eating the forbidden tree was to be death. But did he fully comprehend all that death entailed? Probably not. But whatever the penalty would be or how it would be carried out, Adam knew that he did not want to be separated from his wife. Notice what He said to God:
"And the man said, The woman whom you gave to be WITH ME, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." (Gen. 3:12).
Isn’t that interesting. Adam did not say: "The woman whom you gave TO ME." Or, "The woman whom you gave FOR ME." But rather, "The woman whom you gave to be WITH ME." Adam reminded God that He created Eve to be ‘WITH’ him, not apart from him. And if Adam had obeyed God, whereas his wife did not, he feared being SEPARATED from Eve. And so he also ate of the fruit and sinned, not because he was deceived as Eve was, but because he loved her in his heart so much that he couldn’t bear the thought of not being "WITH" her.
And so, did Adam "freely" WITHOUT A CAUSE choose to eat the forbidden fruit? What nonsense. Adam had the BIGGEST REASON in the world that CAUSED him to sin and remain with his wife!
So if you are looking for "free" will in the Garden at the time of our first parents' creation, forget it, 'cause it ain’t there!
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