> General Discussions
Eph.4:9
lilitalienboi16:
Dear Ian, I am not being angry with you.
The scriptures were not written in English so I'm not sure what your point chasing this, "wicked" is "twisted", one down... had it been written in english, and the word were trully wicked, and the origin of wicked were twisted, then perhaps you could say that wicked people are twisted but you must remember that since wicked stems from twisted, as you suggest, that would not mean that all twisted people are wicked. One supersedes the other. So therefor, even in this case, saying someone is wicked and then saying you only mean twisted, NOT evil or sinful or any of the other meanings attributed to the word, shows you are being deceitful and dishonest. I cannot allow that to stand. Had the word trully been twisted, then yes, we could not call them wicked, but because the word is wicked, you could say they are twisted but NOT ONLY twisted. Do you understand?
Now what do the scriptures say, aside from the words of our Lord? Well here is your word in that passage;
I am quoting a brother here with this next statement but I believe it is very valid to this discussion:
Would that it were that simple. RAW-SHAW always translated 'wicked'?
Here's the word used in Jeremiah 17:9
H605
אנשׁ
'ânash
Total KJV Occurrences: 11
incurable, 5
Job_34:6, Jer_15:18, Jer_30:12, Jer_30:15, Mic_1:9
desperate, 1
Isa_17:11
desperately, 1
Jer_17:9
friends, 1
Jer_38:22
sick, 1
2Sa_12:15
wicked, 1
Jer_17:9
woeful, 1
Jer_17:16
Not the same word!
Perhaps RAW-SHAW should be reasonable translated as "wicked" and have an English relationship to 'twisted', but NOT A-NASH!
Jer 17:9 The heartH3820 is deceitfulH6121 above allH4480 H3605 things, and desperately wicked:H605 whoH4310 can knowH3045 it?
'ânash
aw-nash'
A primitive root; to be frail, feeble, or (figuratively) melancholy: - desperate (-ly wicked), incurable, sick, woeful.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/anash.html
Since there is a separate word entirely for wicked, I am inclined to believe that the Lord inspired Anash instead of RawShaw because He was making a subtle but important distinction between our hearts being wicked (sinful, evil, etc...) and being weak, sickly, frail (incapable of doing good on our own and in need of God).
God be with you,
Alex
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Ian 155 on September 13, 2014, 02:35:36 AM ---"your saying that God created us with wicked hearts".??
Will deceitful, corrupt, adulterous, murderous, devising evil,lying,conspiring, do then?
If there was any good in it Alex ,it would not need to be replaced
Ps I was also deceived into believing im Ok Perhaps its just MY Heart of flesh then not yours,
Try not get angry with your brother/sister friend..Me.. for a week.. even our good is Wicked.(Twisted)
I gave you the root of the word wicked - weave ,twist,something so weak it could be twisted...
We call it "Spin" now ie "spin doctor"able to "pervert the truth"
People twist true Christianity into self-serving as did the (crooked) serpent ,it is anglo saxon (Wiker)
Sure it came after the bible was originally written I believe Deceitful may have been in its place.
Jer 17:9 Crooked is the heart above all things, And it is incurable--who doth know it? perhaps closer Youngs
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceeding weak - who can know it? Hebrew translation
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? KJV
It is when we get shown our weakness as was Job we admit we are,(this comes by testing) I believe the transformation Starts.
All of this is MY UNDERSTANDING and since this is a platform for discussion, may I air what I have been shown ?
So yes check it out.Remember there was NO PERSON IN THE LAND MORE UPRIGHT THAN JOB - Coming Close was Nathaniel in whom nothing FALSE was found (a true Israelite)
So I will persuade you to ask the Father to show you your weak state that you may(boast in it-of it)
Then his power will make you strong,Spititually if one even thinks bad/evil/wicked he is guilty.
PS (the English words wicked, wick and weak all originated from the same word)Hebrew word that is translated as "wicked" is pronounced raw-shaw. It means to be wrong by making trouble, or twisting things with "wicked work" i.e.
--- End quote ---
Btw I took the liberty of looking up Ra-Shaw itself in the old testatment using this site;
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/rasha-2.html
Strong's Number: 7563
Original Word Word Origin
[Xr from (07561)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Rasha` TWOT - 2222b
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
raw-shaw' Adjective
Definition
wicked, criminal
guilty one, one guilty of crime (subst)
wicked (hostile to God)
wicked, guilty of sin (against God or man)
NAS Word Usage - Total: 264
evil 1, evil man 1, evil men 1, guilty 3, man 1, offender 1, ungodly 1, wicked 228, wicked man 21, wicked men 2, wicked one 1, wicked ones 3
Twisted isn't even actually in the definition for the word as it is used in the old testatment, at least not according to the NAS hebrew old testement lexicon.
God be with you,
Alex
rick:
I believe everything we humans do are always for selfish reasons, somehow we benefit by gaining money, praise or some promotion.
Being self-centered does not make us wicked or evil by their definitions, if we were made wicked or evil, God’s creation would of went extinct long ago.
We were made in vanity, spiritually weak, we are not made evil or wicked and my proof is we have not all killed each other.
I rest my case. ;)
Ian 155:
last note from my side I having looked at the word pertaining to the human mind,have found this heart condition whether translated Evil,Wicked ,weak,deceitful.... find that this heart is extreeeemly deceitful, I know I walk free of most of the vile (can I say obvious) things I used to walk in ,however it is true, depending on circumstance I have on many occasions spontaneously reverted without even knowing it. No sir this heart of mine is by no means pure, Jesus did descend and walked among the lowest of these minded folks, he obercame and he will give us the power to do the same,Point here is the process's would take probably a lifetime or more for some of us,who is to know.If one transgresses in the smallest area one becomes guilty of all.
Its the Timid ( weak) that are 1st on the list that cannot enter....
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Ian 155 on September 15, 2014, 02:03:30 AM ---last note from my side I having looked at the word pertaining to the human mind,have found this heart condition whether translated Evil,Wicked ,weak,deceitful.... find that this heart is extreeeemly deceitful, I know I walk free of most of the vile (can I say obvious) things I used to walk in ,however it is true, depending on circumstance I have on many occasions spontaneously reverted without even knowing it. No sir this heart of mine is by no means pure, Jesus did descend and walked among the lowest of these minded folks, he obercame and he will give us the power to do the same,Point here is the process's would take probably a lifetime or more for some of us,who is to know.If one transgresses in the smallest area one becomes guilty of all.
Its the Timid ( weak) that are 1st on the list that cannot enter....
--- End quote ---
I agree with you, that the heart is deceitful but I find that this quality stems not from it having been created evil, but rather, from its inherent weakness. Our thoughts are all to quick to betray us. I have found that even if I were to lock myself in a dark closet for the rest of my days, I would still find a way to sin. My flesh and the spirit within are constantly at war and due to my weak heart, without the power of God, I volunteer to sin every time. I don't think my heart is wicked though but there are certainly things that are less than Godly which must be purged. I don't think humanity is created to be wicked either but that through the influences of Satan, the beast within, and a weak condition, many humans can't help but participate in acts of wickedness until they are completely consumed by them and no longer appear human but rather evil.
I will leave you with this last witness and all the forum as I find it extremely pertinent:
Romans 8:19-21 "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."
Strongs Concordance Greek, Vanity: http://biblehub.com/greek/3153.htm
Subject to futility: moral weakness ;)
The heart is exceedingly weak, who can know it?!
I think whether you wish to consider this twisted or moral weakness, we are in agreement that it takes the power of God to bring about the refining of gold and silver, the destruction of wood, hay and stubble, in us, and to this I can have no contentions.
Thank you for the discourse, brother.
God be with you,
Alex
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