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General Questions
Kat:
Hi Ian,
--- Quote ---If one is, for instance,to stay carnal , one will not comprehend the truth (enter the kingdom)
--- End quote ---
It is true that while in the flesh there will remain a degree of carnality, as Paul spoke of.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
But it is through this physical flesh that we experience first (eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil), and yes the carnal person has no spiritual life. It's all just a temporary existence, like all animal life "...What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away" (Jas 4:14).
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
It is while we are yet carnal physical being that we must repent and come to a knowledge of the truth. But as Paul was saying we will not reach perfection while in this flesh.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
It is while in this physical body (now for the elect, in the next age for the rest) that we learn what sin is and through overcoming the carnality of the flesh that the 'new man/woman' comes to life in us and begins the process of being put right with God.
Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with Him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
v. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection;
v. 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;
Rom 6:7 for He that hath died is justified from sin.
Rom 6:8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him;
Physical life comes first, carnality is a must to learn about and experience evil. When God starts His work in us we begin to overcome this carnal flesh, but only by the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) indwelling. "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God," now the elect have only been given a guarantee/promise/earnest..
Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, - in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
v. 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of His glory.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
microlink:
--- Quote from: Kat on November 02, 2014, 09:35:25 AM ---
One thing that I will point out is that Christ certainly comes to His elect now through the Holy Spirit indwelling and it is teaching and preparing them so that they can serve/rule with Him. We know He will raise the elect first and then they will accompany Him in a literal return to the physical world to set up His government, and there will need to be a literal/physical system, as well as spiritual, to rule this physical world. What do you think all of the prophets, patriarchs, the righteous rulers of Israel and John the Baptist will be doing? They already have shown there their faithfulness and ability to rule, they need to be brought to know Christ and repentance... but would they still be serving in His government?
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
I agree with most of your post and appreciate it. But I am now uncertain who will rule with Christ during the Millennium. We know the resurrected saints will be with Him as kings and priests. Would there be others? Will they be physical and resurrected in the flesh? Will those who were His prophets and Patriarchs in the OT including John the baptist be there as well? Are there scriptures to tell us this will be so? Just wondering. I suspect they would not be subject to the LoF, but I know not?
Kat:
Hi microlink,
--- Quote from: microlink on November 02, 2014, 07:13:56 PM ---Would there be others? Will they be physical and resurrected in the flesh? Will those who were His prophets and Patriarchs in the OT including John the baptist be there as well? Are there scriptures to tell us this will be so? Just wondering. I suspect they would not be subject to the LoF, but I know not?
--- End quote ---
I thought I had included this Scripture, well here it is now.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
We know that those who died before the resurrection of Christ will not be in the first resurrection, those few that are will be given glorified spiritual bodies.
1Cor 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
But only the few with the Spirit of Christ indwelling at His rreturn will receive this most grand of all human hopes. All those before Christ who died in faith, that we see in Hebrews 11, will not receive this at Christ's return, they never knew the Christ of the NT, will not partake in the promise.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith, received not the promise,
v.40 God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
So what are we to think by this next Scripture that Christ spoke?
Mat 8:11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob IN the kingdom of heaven.
Well the kingdom - New Jerusalem will "come down out of heaven," this is the elect, it descends to the earth where they will be the spiritual rulers with Christ on the earth.
Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
Matt 6:10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
So what is Christ saying about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob being 'in' the kingdom? Maybe the physical aspect of it's government? Well there is Scripture about some being cast into "outer darkness," so maybe those that died in 'faith' are not cast out of the kingdom/government of God. Certainly it's a big difference than the elect, but still these were those that knew God and faithfully served Him in the OT. Certainly all in the second resurrection will into the LoF, that is the judgment of Christ and the elect, as it says "that apart from us they should not be made perfect."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: microlink on November 02, 2014, 07:13:56 PM ---
--- Quote from: Kat on November 02, 2014, 09:35:25 AM ---
One thing that I will point out is that Christ certainly comes to His elect now through the Holy Spirit indwelling and it is teaching and preparing them so that they can serve/rule with Him. We know He will raise the elect first and then they will accompany Him in a literal return to the physical world to set up His government, and there will need to be a literal/physical system, as well as spiritual, to rule this physical world. What do you think all of the prophets, patriarchs, the righteous rulers of Israel and John the Baptist will be doing? They already have shown there their faithfulness and ability to rule, they need to be brought to know Christ and repentance... but would they still be serving in His government?
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
I agree with most of your post and appreciate it. But I am now uncertain who will rule with Christ during the Millennium. We know the resurrected saints will be with Him as kings and priests. Would there be others? Will they be physical and resurrected in the flesh? Will those who were His prophets and Patriarchs in the OT including John the baptist be there as well? Are there scriptures to tell us this will be so? Just wondering. I suspect they would not be subject to the LoF, but I know not?
--- End quote ---
Hi Microlink,
Ray pointed out that King David died an unrepentant sinner as his final words were "kill my enemies and make it bloody."
1 King 2:5-9 "Moreover thou knowest also what Joab the son of Zeruiah did to me, and what he did to the two captains of the hosts of Israel, unto Abner the son of Ner, and unto Amasa the son of Jether, whom he slew, and shed the blood of war in peace, and put the blood of war upon his girdle that was about his loins, and in his shoes that were on his feet.Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace.But shew kindness unto the sons of Barzillai the Gileadite, and let them be of those that eat at thy table: for so they came to me when I fled because of Absalom thy brother. And, behold, thou hast with thee Shimei the son of Gera, a Benjamite of Bahurim, which cursed me with a grievous curse in the day when I went to Mahanaim: but he came down to meet me at Jordan, and I sware to him by the Lord, saying, I will not put thee to death with the sword. Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood. "
Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
We also have several different pieces of scripture in the new testament that show us that the prophets and kings would not be made perfect without us (the gentiles).
Hebrews 11:13 These [The patriarchs and prophets of old] all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39-40 "And these [The patriarchs and prophets of old] all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."
Romans 11:19-21 "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."
Romans 11:24-26 "For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"
Matthew 11:11 "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
We are also told that when Sodom is returned to her former estate then will Israel too be returned to her former estate.
Ezekiel 16:55 "When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou [Jerusalem] and thy daughters shall return to your former estate."
Ezekiel: 61-63 "Then you shall remember your ways, and be ashamed, when you shall receive your sisters, your elder [Samaria] and your younger [SODOM]: and I will give them [Samaria and Sodom] unto you for daughters, but not by your covenant. And I will establish my covenant with you; and you shall KNOW [for the first time] that I am the Lord: That you may remember, and be confounded, and never open your mouth any more because of your shame, when I am PACIFIED [make atonement, to pardon, to placate, to cover, to condone] TOWARD THEE [Jerusalem AND her sisters, Samaria and Sodom] for all that you have done, saith the Lord God."
Ezekiel 37:1-6 "The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord."
Ezekiel 37:11 "Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel:[/b] behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts."
Only those who overcome will not be hurt by the second death:
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 21:8 "...shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Those that overcome are those that endure unto the end. The ones that are saved.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
There are many more scriptures as well that can be added to this, its one big circle!
Hope this helps some.
God bless,
Alex
Edit: I made this post while Kat was posting, sorry if there is some repeated information here. Was just trying to help :)
Dave in Tenn:
A side note on the scripture John 6:63.
Rays Replies to 'Flesh that profits nothing?'
on: March 17, 2006, 09:51:28 AM
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth
nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are
spirit, and [they] are life. [John 6:63]
Does our flesh profit nothing? Was the design of mans physical body and his experiences to mean nothing?
[Ray's reply]
Sometimes familiar words have a way of prejudicing our minds. In a Scripture such as these where our Lord states that "the flesh PROFITS nothing," and we feel immediately that, why sure it does, isn't that the whole purpose of our physical life, existence, and experience? To be PROFITED by the whole thing? Yes, but that is not specifically what Jesus is stating.
Jesus did not say that there is no value to our physical experience. What He said was that the experience itself is NOT THE PROFIT ITSELF.
I am sure that most read this verse thinking Jesus said this: "...the flesh PRODUCES nothing." As though nothing valuable comes out of our experience in the flesh, when that is decidedly not what Jesus is saying.
The word translated "profits" is from the Greek word "apheleo" and has a primary meaning of "BENEFIT." It is virtually always translated with a negative connotation:
"what is a man PROFITED, if he gain the whole world..." (Matt. 16:26
"Pilate sat that he could PREVAIL nothing..." (Matt. 27:24).
"and was nothing BETTERED, but rather..." (Mark 5:26).
"...the flesh PROFITS nothing...." (John 6:63).
"Perceive you how you PREVAIL nothing.." (John 12:19).
"For what is a man ADVANTAGED...." (Luke 9:25).
"...it PROFITS me nothing..." (I Cor. 13:3).
"...the word preached did not PROFIT them" (Heb. 4:2).
"...which did not PROFIT them...." (Heb. 13:9).
Next notice that even Christ Himself does not profit some:
"Christ shall PROFIT you nothing...." (Gal. 5:2).
And so what Jesus is clearly stating here is that the FLESH (or any of the other things mentioned above including Christ Himself), are not in and by themselves a BENEFIT (profit) to us until others facts PRODUCE those BENEFITS.
This is why Jesus asked: "What is a man PROFITED if he shall gain the whole world [lots of flesh], and lose his own soul?" (Matt. 16:25).
There is no PROFIT/BENEFIT in the flesh itself, only what comes OUT OF IT. And once you are OUT OF IT (as out of the world), the world is of NO profit/benefit to you.
Maybe our biggest spiritual example of this is: "Come OUT of her, My people...." (Rev. 18:4). If there is "profit" to be had from being IN Babylon, then perhaps we should all go BACK IN? No, Babylon is about as fleshly and worldly as anything could ever be, and Babylon BENEFITS NOTHING, so "Come OUT OF HER My people...." The BENEFITS are IN CHRIST, OUT OF Babylon, out of the flesh and the world.
Hope this helps your understanding,
God be with you,
Ray
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