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lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Kat on January 10, 2015, 04:05:05 PM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on January 10, 2015, 03:16:04 PM ---"So what I'm getting at is that as spirit being, just as we humans, also have a spirit of life in them, this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well. The Scripture do mention this about God."
How does the spirit consist of the mind and heart if when we die, and the spirit returns to God, we lose all consciousness? Ray said Christ's spirit returned to God but that He was dead, lacked consciousness. So wouldn't we retain consciousness if the spirit contained the mind and heart? Wouldn't Christ have been conscious then if His mind and heart was in His spirit? I thought it was the combination of the spirit (breath of life) and body (dust of the earth) that gives rise to our SOUL which is the consciousness (mind) and heart (personality)?
--- End quote ---
Okay Alex, what I'm saying is that the spirit of man and Christ and all spirit being I would assume, when united with a body (physical body or spiritual body) that's what gives it a soul. That is what contains the mind - heart (not talking about a physical heart here) the soul that is formed when spirit and body combine/unite. So that mind and heart (seat of our emotions) in us is what gives us consciousness and the ability to think, reason, love, hate, etc... as Ray said so many times, we have he ability to make our own choices.
Here is a little excerpt from an article.
http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm -----------------
The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).
A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.
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When the body dies and then the body and soul dissolves, returns to dust, no body no soul. The spirit of life given at birth no longer has a place/body to give it life/animation and the Father receives it back to Himself.
Ecc 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
That spirit that God has received back has all the information of who that person is within it, it is the person's mind and heart, so to speak. But those things only function in a body, and at death it is asleep and will remain unconscious until God wakes the spirit up at resurrection by giving it a new body, either spiritual (elect) or another physical body for those not written in the Book of life (Rev 20:15).
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3933.0.html -------
At death, our spirit returns to God, but the spirit has not consciousness. The consciousness is called "soul," but the soul dies at death, and the body returns to the dust. In resurrection God puts our spirit back into a NEW body and we once again experience soul--life and animation.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3253.0.html ---
No, sheol is not the grave. There is another word for grave. Sheol is the "state" or "realm" or "condition" of the dead. And the spirit is not the soul. The spirit does not have consciousness. The spirit cannot think thoughts, and that is why our "thoughts perish" at death according to David. Our spirit as well as Christ Spirit had to be reunited with a BODY before we or He would have consciousness again. Jesus was DEAD for three days, not "absent from the body" for three days.
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Hope this helps.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
Thanks for trying again. I agree with you that the union of the spirit (breath of life) and the body (be it dust of the earth or spiritual) is what gives it a soul. I know you are not talking about a physical heart.
So now answer me plainly if you can, the soul contains the mind and heart?
It seems from your subsequent argument to follow the first initial point that you are not saying this is the case.
Specifically: "That spirit that God has received back has all the information of who that person is within it, it is the person's mind and heart, so to speak"
Also previously you told me: ""So what I'm getting at is that as spirit being, just as we humans, also have a spirit of life in them, this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well. The Scripture do mention this about God."
From what I understand you to be saying is one of two things:
1)the soul of man is his consciousness and that the spirit is what contains the heart and mind.
2)You could also be saying that the Soul is the medium by way of consciousness, which comes about through the union of body and spirit, that allows the mind and heart, which originates from the spirit, to be perceived and expressed.
Are any of these correct in what you're trying to say? If so, which one?
Personally, I always thought it was much simpler than either of these cases but I guess I missed it completely. I always thought it was breath of life (Spirit) + body (Dust of the earth or spiritual body) = Soul which is the consciousness of man and that being his heart and mind.
God bless,
Alex
Kat:
I guess maybe I am making this more complicated than it really is in my attempt to explain it. You seem to mainly be understanding what I'm trying to say, but maybe the heart and mind thing is confusing it.
So let me try again, thinking of the body as just a physical container (Paul calls it a tent) for a person, that includes the brain and physical heart that makes it physically live. Now the spirit gives us breath and life to put the body into motion so to function.
But man is not complete just like that, that is what all animals have. We are much more than that, so that's what separates man from animal... the heart and mind, which gives us the internal workings of a person so they can learn, reason, dream, hope, plan, and experience joy, fear, love, gratitude, hate etc... Those are the aspects of a person that makes them so much higher than animal life and gives us personality and makes us individuals.
I guess I'm thinking it's more like your no. 2. All these things that a person experiences need to recorded or remember, that's what our mind does for us, and that mind is within body/container/tent, with the spirit/breath to make a soul.
We see from the Scripture that the body will go back to dust when it dies, when that happens it also removes the soul, and what's left is that unconscious spirit. So what I think is that this spirit essence of a person that God takes back at death must contain the record of the memory of the person, and it is placed back in the person when they are brought back to life at resurrection, so they are the very same person in every way.
I hope we're getting somewhere and I'm not just confusing the heck out of you...
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Kat on January 10, 2015, 05:21:25 PM ---
I guess maybe I am making this more complicated than it really is in my attempt to explain it. You seem to mainly be understanding what I'm trying to say, but maybe the heart and mind thing is confusing it.
So let me try again, thinking of the body as just a physical container (Paul calls it a tent) for a person, that includes the brain and physical heart that makes it physically live. Now the spirit gives us breath and life to put the body into motion so to function.
But man is not complete just like that, that is what all animals have. We are much more than that, so that's what separates man from animal... the heart and mind, which gives us the internal workings of a person so they can learn, reason, dream, hope, plan, and experience joy, fear, love, gratitude, hate etc... Those are the aspects of a person that makes them so much higher than animal life and gives us personality and makes us individuals.
I guess I'm thinking it's more like your no. 2. All these things that a person experiences need to recorded or remember, that's what our mind does for us, and that mind is within body/container/tent, with the spirit/breath to make a soul.
We see from the Scripture that the body will go back to dust when it dies, when that happens it also removes the soul, and what's left is that unconscious spirit. So what I think is that this spirit essence of a person that God takes back at death must contain the record of the memory of the person, and it is placed back in the person when they are brought back to life at resurrection, so they are the very same person in every way.
I hope we're getting somewhere and I'm not just confusing the heck out of you...
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
This post was much clearer. We are on the same page now. I understand what you are saying. I don't think I necessarily disagree either but I do have a question then. If the mind and heart originate from the spirit that God gave us, that spirit of man, breathe of life, how does one come about having a carnal mind?
I was under the impression that because the mind and heart originate from the soul which comes about through a union of earthy (dust of the earth) and spirit (Breath of life) that this dust of the earth could influence that mind which in part exists because of it thereby making us carnal minded. However, if the spirit is the origin of the mind, how do we end up being carnal minded?
God bless,
Alex
Kat:
I believe the carnal nature must be inherent to being human, yes these lusts are in our flesh, but not literally caused by the flesh.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Here a question for you Alex, does your hand make you steal? Does your eye make you lust?
Mat 18:8 "If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.
v. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.
Here is an excerpt from LoF no. 16 article concerning this Scripture.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-A.html --------------------
THE WORDS OF JESUS ARE NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY. You are not to literally, cut off your feet or your hands or pluck out your eyes. The words of our Lord are figurative, symbolic language, which have to do with a higher spiritual truth, but have nothing to do with literal dismemberment of your physical body.
It is what you sinfully touch with your hands and your mind that must be repented of in your HEART.
It is where you sinfully walk with your feet and your mind that must be repented of in your HEART.
It is what you sinfully lust after with your eyes and your mind that must be repented of in your HEART.
It is the HEART that is, "Deceitful above all things and exceedingly wicked," not our eyes, hands and feet, (Jer. 17:9).
It is out of our HEART that, "…proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies," not from our eyes, hands and feet, (Matt. 15:19).
v
Jesus said that it would be:
"…better for you to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [eonian] fire"(Matt. 18:08).
We have seen that our Lord’s instructions to cut off an offending hand or foot, or to pluck out an offending eye is not literal, but figurative, spiritual, symbolic language. It is really the offenses of the heart, which are to be cast off, not our physical limbs.
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It's the lust of the flesh that Paul said he wrestled with, why?
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Now we know the whole passage of how he wanted to do what he could not do... this is his flesh, but not literally and you know the way that passage ends...
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
v. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
v. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
v. 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Yes it's only through the Spirit of Jesus Christ can we overcome sin - carnality - the flesh, and it does not rule/reign over us. So I'll just add this next passage from the Good News Bible because it fits what this is saying.
Rom 6:12 Sin must no longer rule in your mortal bodies, so that you obey the desires of your natural self.
v. 13 Nor must you surrender any part of yourselves to sin to be used for wicked purposes. Instead, give yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life, and surrender your whole being to him to be used for righteous purposes.
v. 14 Sin must not be your master; for you do not live under law but under God's grace.
Hope this helped answer your question.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
acomplishedartis:
Back to the first issue.
I Believe Jesus was a little less that the angels, but more than a human. (Humans don't walk in the water and turn water to wine). I am saying, He was all human to be able to fully simpathize with us. But then he was more than that. You can temporaly empty a glass more than half way.only...right?
Also I think that the way that Jesus was tempted/tried was similar as when we believers are. When we are spiritually strong and a pretty girl catch our eye, we don't let that thought to develope (we plug out our eye, right away!), and move on into better thoughts. With practice is less hard. If I am not interested in nice cars, nice cars are not so much of a strong desire for me. I think Jesus was more interested on his fathers bussines than anything else.
First the hearth gets the feeling or the emotions and then we go directly to fall, except if a bigger feeling and emotion trigers our hearth and stop it.
I don't think that Jesus ever had any pervert strong desires going on in his mind. (He knew exactly how the human will works and he could prevent those desires.--after all, He had the mind of God...).
What can be more humbling than Jesus becoming mortal?
And what act of love could be grater than Jesus our God, dying for us?
THINK
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