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Public Apology
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Kat on January 10, 2015, 07:27:08 PM ---
I believe the carnal nature must be inherent to being human, yes these lusts are in our flesh, but not literally caused by the flesh.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Here a question for you Alex, does your hand make you steal? Does your eye make you lust?
Mat 18:8 "If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.
v. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.
Here is an excerpt from LoF no. 16 article concerning this Scripture.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-A.html --------------------
THE WORDS OF JESUS ARE NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY. You are not to literally, cut off your feet or your hands or pluck out your eyes. The words of our Lord are figurative, symbolic language, which have to do with a higher spiritual truth, but have nothing to do with literal dismemberment of your physical body.
It is what you sinfully touch with your hands and your mind that must be repented of in your HEART.
It is where you sinfully walk with your feet and your mind that must be repented of in your HEART.
It is what you sinfully lust after with your eyes and your mind that must be repented of in your HEART.
It is the HEART that is, "Deceitful above all things and exceedingly wicked," not our eyes, hands and feet, (Jer. 17:9).
It is out of our HEART that, "…proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies," not from our eyes, hands and feet, (Matt. 15:19).
v
Jesus said that it would be:
"…better for you to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [eonian] fire"(Matt. 18:08).
We have seen that our Lord’s instructions to cut off an offending hand or foot, or to pluck out an offending eye is not literal, but figurative, spiritual, symbolic language. It is really the offenses of the heart, which are to be cast off, not our physical limbs.
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It's the lust of the flesh that Paul said he wrestled with, why?
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Now we know the whole passage of how he wanted to do what he could not do... this is his flesh, but not literally and you know the way that passage ends...
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
v. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
v. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
v. 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Yes it's only through the Spirit of Jesus Christ can we overcome sin - carnality - the flesh, and it does not rule/reign over us. So I'll just add this next passage from the Good News Bible because it fits what this is saying.
Rom 6:12 Sin must no longer rule in your mortal bodies, so that you obey the desires of your natural self.
v. 13 Nor must you surrender any part of yourselves to sin to be used for wicked purposes. Instead, give yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life, and surrender your whole being to him to be used for righteous purposes.
v. 14 Sin must not be your master; for you do not live under law but under God's grace.
Hope this helped answer your question.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
Good post. Definitely makes more sense to me now from what you originally were trying to say.
So just to be clear (Yes or no answers would be good):
My original understanding of the mind and heart originating and existing in the soul was incorrect?
If the answer to the above is yes, then that means the spirit is where the heart and mind originate but are expressed through the medium provided by the union of body and soul known as our consciousness?
If the above is yes, then the flesh, our container, influences our heart and mind(which resides in our spirit) through its carnal nature, and therefor, unless God intervenes and gives us His Holy spirit, we give into the influences/pulls/desires of the flesh that are affecting us and thus are considered to have be "carnal" minded?
Thanks again Kat for sticking with me on this. I am benefiting! God willing, you are too! :)
God bless,
Alex
Mike Gagne:
Great post everyone. Just some thoughts, Kat , dogs can learn and fear and a few other things with there mind. Now if the heart and mind return to God then they must have come from God and would that not be touching the false doctrine of the law of circularity? I also need some better understanding of this! I was under the same belief as Alex. I read your post but the animal thing through me off ,as you can see what I said about dogs, here I thought it was clear that the body needs the spirit of life to make a living conscious soul. Side note, Alex, Kat I really appreciate how you guys dig and dig until the answers becomes clearer!
Kat:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on January 10, 2015, 10:55:43 PM ---My original understanding of the mind and heart originating and existing in the soul was incorrect?
If the answer to the above is yes, then that means the spirit is where the heart and mind originate but are expressed through the medium provided by the union of body and soul known as our consciousness?
If the above is yes, then the flesh, our container, influences our heart and mind(which resides in our spirit) through its carnal nature, and therefor, unless God intervenes and gives us His Holy spirit, we give into the influences/pulls/desires of the flesh that are affecting us and thus are considered to have be "carnal" minded?
--- End quote ---
Alex, well I think the first question maybe no it was not incorrect. Because I think it must be the combination of spirit and body that creates our mind... the spirit (essence) that give breath/life is a clean slate at first, it takes the brain (physical) in conjunction with it to then function together within a person and then we can think, that's our mind.
But your second question then seems right too, because the mind is "expressed through the medium provided by the union of body and soul known as our consciousness?"
But the flesh is totally controlled by the mind, it (flesh) has no desires of itself, those come from the mind/heart. The flesh just give us the means to carry out the desires that originate in the mind. This is the carnality that we all have "the mind of the flesh" that is human reasoning that produce nothing good, "no one does good, not even one" (Rom 3:12).
Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:
v. 7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
v. 8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But when the Holy Spirit joins with our spirit, everything changes... only then can we from within by His Spirit indwelling override the pulls of the fleshly mind.
v. 9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.
--- Quote from: Mike Gagne on January 10, 2015, 11:42:23 PM --- here I thought it was clear that the body needs the spirit of life to make a living conscious soul.
--- End quote ---
Hi Mike, yes that indeed is true. And yes animals must have a mind/soul (body+spirit) as well... it does need to think which way to run to survive. But the human's mind is tremendously more advanced than an animals, which works basically on instinct. An animal can never know God, actually we are the only master/god they can comprehend.
So I hope you can see there is no law of circularity going on. The spirit/breath of life is but the mean by which God provides for us to have consciousness, it is the mind/soul formed by the spirit and body that creates a thinking person. So then at death God brings that spirit back to Himself, it is then filled with the knowledge/memory of that person. So then that mind/soul will be put back into a resurrected body there is the exact same person.
Alex, I thought I understood this somewhat, but you have caused me to really think hard about all these things. That's what we all need to do in order to gain a better understanding.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
rick:
--- Quote from: Kat on January 10, 2015, 05:21:25 PM ---I guess I'm thinking it's more like your no. 2. All these things that a person experiences need to recorded or remember
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
I’m confused because Ray was quite clear when he said that there is not a lambs book of life, that is symbolic . Jesus is the lambs book of life. Jesus does not need a book, He is God who knows all things.
Ray also said that the spirit has no conscience so it would stand to reason it would not have any memory either. When a body receives God’s spirit it becomes a living soul according to Rays papers.
Tying that in with God who knows the ends from the beginning as well as its not in man to direct his footsteps and also no free will leads me to believe God does not need ones spirit to record anything,
Jesus is the book of all books if you will.
Kat:
Hi Rick, I understand what you are saying. Yes it is symbolic, it's not literal, God certainly does not need anything to remember them things about us. There are certainly not little spirits floating around that has our life history on them ;) It just a way of saying it so we can understand it better, it's for our benefit to use those terms.
The Spirit does not have consciousness, it must be united with a body and brain for that to happen, but the mind/heart is also in the soul that forms from that, as those are all abstract elements.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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