> General Discussions
Public Apology
rick:
Hi Kat,
This is an awesome topic and good for reiterating Ray’s teachings. I consider the brain an organ like the heart or kidneys etc.
Ray said God lives in His heaven and man lives in his heaven too, mans heaven is in his brain, mans soul resides in his brain which is only an organ, his soul is who he is what he is what he feels, its his emotions.
You stated mind/heart, the heart of man or the mind of man is one in the same, there is no difference between the two. When the brain is dead then also the soul is dead or when the heart of man is dead so then the man is dead.
Christendom says that man was made in three parts, body soul and spirit but we know man was made in only two parts body and spirit and then the man became a living soul, spirit is the life force in us, it has no consciousness no memory no heart no mind.
Christendom believes we are spirit being and that we cannot die which is contrary to what Ray has taught, for the soul that sins shall die also the living know they will die but the dead know nothing, there is no knowledge in the grave nothing for ones hands to do, well one cannot be alive and dead at the same time at least physically.
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: Mike Gagne on January 10, 2015, 11:42:23 PM ---Great post everyone. Just some thoughts, Kat , dogs can learn and fear and a few other things with there mind. Now if the heart and mind return to God then they must have come from God and would that not be touching the false doctrine of the law of circularity? I also need some better understanding of this! I was under the same belief as Alex. I read your post but the animal thing through me off ,as you can see what I said about dogs, here I thought it was clear that the body needs the spirit of life to make a living conscious soul. Side note, Alex, Kat I really appreciate how you guys dig and dig until the answers becomes clearer!
--- End quote ---
Ray put it this way: We are not spiritual beings having a physical experience. We are physical beings having a spiritual experience.
That's what this life is. I'll admit that this is hard news for religiously-minded folks. "We" have to come to terms with a LOT of terms--not the least of which is "spirit" itself.
Are dogs or dolphins having a 'spiritual experience'? We barely know what they are 'thinking' and can usually only interpret it through the prism of our own experience. IF they are (and I'm not saying they are), then it is a 'spiritual experience' of a different sort. God said "Let us make MANKIND in our image."
Dave in Tenn:
Alex, we are all prone to "mis-speaking". I reckon the only ones who don't are the ones who never speak. I could show you places Ray "mis-spoke". To his credit, he NEVER SAID HE DIDN'T.
Do you think the Scripture says the same things so many different ways and in so many different "flavors" because the more we know of them, the better we understand? Is that why "scripture cannot contradict itself"? Doesn't James further explain Paul?
Does 'scripture' contradict our understanding at various points along the way? Does it contradict our theologies and doctrines along the way? Does it contradict our behavior along the way?
Hang in there. Sometimes even the English language is "mis-speaking". We just have to do the best we can. As for me, not everything fits in a forum post any longer.
Kat:
Hi Rick, it's so very hard to put my exact thoughts down on how I see this and I am probably not saying making it that clear. But the heart and mind are not the very same thing, I did not mean to say/imply that. They do both carry out the inter workings of a person that makes us who we are, but somewhat different aspects of that. I found an email from Ray that should help with this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=4178.0 -----
No, the heart is not "just a pump." In fact it is very rare that the heart is represented in Scripture as a literal organ of the body. The "heart" of man is the seat of his deepest moral and emotional feelings.
But, no, it is not the "mind." There are separate words for "heart" and "mind" in Scripture. The mind pertains more to the intellect.
You have heard that statement: "You make me sick to my STOMACH," haven't you? The reason for this is, that deep and profound emotions can be felt in the mid-section of our torso. The people of Mesopotamia thought that the liver was the center and cause of these emotions. The Hebrews realized that it was the heart that pumped the life-sustaining blood throughout the body, hence the heart was considered the center of emotional and moral conduct (be it evil or good). This is why Jesus taught that evil thoughts of lust and hate and sin come from the heart, rather than from the mind.
One may compose a love letter in one's mind, but the feelings are coming from that part of our psyche called the heart. Likewise a murderer may make the technical plans to carry out his dirty deed in his mind, but the motivation is in his heart.
We all need to [1] "Let this MIND be in you which is also in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 2:5), and [2] "Take up My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, because I am meek and and humble in heart, and you shall find rest to your souls" (Matt. 11:29).
God be with you,
---------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Kat on January 11, 2015, 06:40:16 AM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on January 10, 2015, 10:55:43 PM ---My original understanding of the mind and heart originating and existing in the soul was incorrect?
If the answer to the above is yes, then that means the spirit is where the heart and mind originate but are expressed through the medium provided by the union of body and soul known as our consciousness?
If the above is yes, then the flesh, our container, influences our heart and mind(which resides in our spirit) through its carnal nature, and therefor, unless God intervenes and gives us His Holy spirit, we give into the influences/pulls/desires of the flesh that are affecting us and thus are considered to have be "carnal" minded?
--- End quote ---
Alex, well I think the first question maybe no it was not incorrect. Because I think it must be the combination of spirit and body that creates our mind... the spirit (essence) that give breath/life is a clean slate at first, it takes the brain (physical) in conjunction with it to then function together within a person and then we can think, that's our mind.
But your second question then seems right too, because the mind is "expressed through the medium provided by the union of body and soul known as our consciousness?"
But the flesh is totally controlled by the mind, it (flesh) has no desires of itself, those come from the mind/heart. The flesh just give us the means to carry out the desires that originate in the mind. This is the carnality that we all have "the mind of the flesh" that is human reasoning that produce nothing good, "no one does good, not even one" (Rom 3:12).
Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:
v. 7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
v. 8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But when the Holy Spirit joins with our spirit, everything changes... only then can we from within by His Spirit indwelling override the pulls of the fleshly mind.
v. 9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.
--- Quote from: Mike Gagne on January 10, 2015, 11:42:23 PM --- here I thought it was clear that the body needs the spirit of life to make a living conscious soul.
--- End quote ---
Hi Mike, yes that indeed is true. And yes animals must have a mind/soul (body+spirit) as well... it does need to think which way to run to survive. But the human's mind is tremendously more advanced than an animals, which works basically on instinct. An animal can never know God, actually we are the only master/god they can comprehend.
So I hope you can see there is no law of circularity going on. The spirit/breath of life is but the mean by which God provides for us to have consciousness, it is the mind/soul formed by the spirit and body that creates a thinking person. So then at death God brings that spirit back to Himself, it is then filled with the knowledge/memory of that person. So then that mind/soul will be put back into a resurrected body there is the exact same person.
Alex, I thought I understood this somewhat, but you have caused me to really think hard about all these things. That's what we all need to do in order to gain a better understanding.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
I will attempt to respond but bare with me I have not had my morning coffee and slept poorly last night. I am still very tired but cannot get back to sleep.
Now I think we may be coming full circle but I am thinking more of what I held originally as correct rather than what I thought you were trying to tell me. I'm not sure If you see it the way I'm about to explain it but it seems you do and for the sake of other members who are following this I will now speak it plainly.
The soul is the originator of the heart and mind. The union of body and spirit which give rise to the soul allow this heart and mind to find a medium for expression. Now for all of our discourse, I do think it could be possible for the spirit to contain a record of this heart and mind, an imprint of the life lived, that returns back to God for safe keeping until the appointed time but if this is the case, and that's an if, I am more convinced now that the spirit does not originate the heart and mind as I thought you were trying to say.
What came into my mind this morning was Gehenna. Specifically:
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
What does God do any different here than man if the spirit contains the heart and mind? Destroy the soul? If the spirit originates and contains the heart and mind, then what man does when He kills the body would result in the same thing God does when He destroys the soul. The cessation of only the consciousness and nothing else. So what's the point of the warning then? Is God being redundant? Of course not, this is a talk on Gehenna and how to put off the flesh. The reason we fear God is because He can destroy our souls which is the origins of our heart and mind and not because we simply cease to be conscious for a time! We have the carnal mind when we are born and this must be destroyed but only God who can destroy the soul has the power to do this, not men who destroy the body.
So plainly: Men killing the body may end our consciousness for a season but it does not purify our hearts and minds like the destruction of our souls (the originator of these two things) would. Since our souls are the originator of the mind and heart it would make sense for Christ to tell us to fear God who can destroy this however none of this would make sense if the spirit were the origins of the heart and mind because God is not destroying the spirit.
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
He never says with all thy spirit. If this were the origins of the heart and mind, would it not be with all thy spirit? I don't know... I'm sincerely asking. I find it strange it is not present in this commandment.
Interestingly Job says this of God
Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
The soul has desire? When I desire things I desire them with my heart and mind, is this not the soul then?
Proverbs 21:10 The soul of the wicked desireth evil: his neighbour findeth no favour in his eyes.
Now, interestingly, Isaiah says our soul desires God but our spirit seeks Him:
Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
If you disagree with me Kat, please let me know. I am still searching this out but for some of these reason I feel that the soul is the origins of the heart and mind and that our soul being partly a result due to a fleshy body is greatly influenced by it which results in what God terms a carnal mind. This carnal mind will be changed slowly as the old man dies, as we put off the flesh, as parts of that mind are cut off and throw into gehenna fire and have it renewed by the spirit of God, the mind of Christ etc... As I said originally, I do think its possible for the spirit of man to be imprinted with the life of a person and return to God as a record but I don't know if that is even necessary for God to remember a person and bring them back.
Well I am grateful to be searching this matter out with you Kat and God willing we will get to the bottom of this!
Still digging.
With love,
Alex
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version