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All from Adam and Noah?
Kat:
--- Quote from: Neo on May 02, 2015, 10:37:41 PM ---
--- Quote from: Kat on April 29, 2015, 10:27:04 PM ---
In Gen. 1:26-27 "created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them," this is the first creation of human beings. Not as a herd, Bob, but a single man and woman that God started with, probably many thousands of years before Adam and Eve. Possibly similar to what scientist say, where they gradually spread out across the world.
Then at the time appointed God "formed" Adam (Gen 2:7), this was the beginning of His plan of salvation for mankind, through that lineage.
--- End quote ---
I know we talked about having 'different ancestors' before, but still, I'm not at all clear on this question... What do you mean when you say "God formed" Adam? If he was physically (biologically) a unique creature (not a mixing and replication of existing genes via sexual reproduction), then he had no ancestry--no lineage--"Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God".
Like the King of Salem.
So two different creations of "man", and two different lineages...
Or, did you mean that "Adam" was 'formed, i.e., born/begotten/descended' from the earlier race? In which case, what did God actually DO? (A Damascus road experience?)
The former: Two separate Creations, unrelated. The latter: One Creation; shared ancestry; God intervenes.
I was thinking you subscribed to the former. (?)
--- End quote ---
Hi Michael, "Formed" is the word used in Scripture and I believe it meant that God literally "formed" a new creature with Adam, but of the same type as the rest of humanity already there, "one blood" (Acts 17:26). So yes I do see it as the formed one you said, "So two different creations of "man", and two different lineages." But Adam was not like the king of Salem in that he DID have beginning of days and an end to his life.
Alex, already posted where Ray had made comments in an email on this subject, but here it is again.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12719.msg111472.html#msg111472 ---------
RAY'S COMMENT: Chapter two does not contradict chapter one. The order in chapter one is plants, animals, and then humanity. Is this not the order found in the geologic table? Chapter two does not recount the creation of humanity, but rather the creation of Adam and Eve. In Genesis 1:26 God "made" [Heb: 'asah'] male and female. In Gen. 2:6 God "formed" [Heb: 'yatsar'] Adam--two difference Hebrew words: two different formations. Notice that it doesn't say in chapter 2 verse 3 that there was no man on earth at this time, but rather that there was "no man to till the ground." There were men, but they were hunters/gatherers, not farmers. God is now going to make a more advance human to cultivate and farm the land.
The phrase "dress it and keep it" in verse 15, is "tend and cultivate." God is teaching Adam to be a farmer. When in doubt, read a proper translation. God did not create the animals AFTER He created Adam. Notice a proper translation from the Concordant Literal Old Testament: "And furthermore, Ieu Alueim ['the Lord God'] HAVING FORMED [yes, having ALREADY formed, millions of years in the past] all field life and every flyer of the heavens." God is bringing to Adam the Animal species which He had already created millions of years in the past, to have Adam give names to them. This obviously took years. Some, such as the dinosaurs (the reptilian 'tannyin, tannyim,' of Gen. 1:21 had already been extinct for many millions of years. These were decidedly not, "great whales," as the King James erroneously translates it).
It was from this first group of humanity that Cain apparently got his wife, cities were built, etc.
Chapter two does not cover the creation of plant life. That began hundreds of millions of years earlier. What God is doing in Chapter two is He is planting a garden for the man to cultivate, farm, and harvest. The word "planted" in Gen. 2:8 is from the Hebrew meaning "to sprout." God "sprouted" newly planted trees, etc. They were mere buds, which would require years to produce fruit to eat. What was Adam expected to eat until these trees matured?
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Zvezda, I know that you said we don't know when the statement, "there was no man to till the ground" was speaking of, but if not before Adam then when, before mankind altogether or some other arbitrary time back in history? Why would God make that comment there, doesn't make sense to me. But that statement was made just prior to God speaking of His creating Adam, and then God goes on to say He "put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it." How could this be speaking of anything else? God said there was no man to till and then right there gave the solution for that, He created Adam to tend and keep the garden.
If you would rather hold to what scientist teach on this, than that is your prerogative. But the Scripture does speak pretty clearly on this and to me Scripture comes before science every time.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Dave in Tenn:
What comment was made? "There was no man to till the ground". What ground? Didn't Eden have boundaries?
"Adam" doesn't simply mean humanity. Individual 'men' were also 'adam' in the Hebrew.
In the end, it doesn't matter much to me whether Adam was the first farmer. The first farmer was certainly "adam".
I think we have to have a measure of humility in these matters...it certainly seems to me that God required it of people who lived a lot closer in both time and proximity to these things. "Where were you when I...?"
zvezda:
--- Quote ---I know that you said we don't know when the statement, "there was no man to till the ground" was speaking of, but if not before Adam then when, before mankind altogether or some other arbitrary time back in history?
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat, no, I know it's before Adam. It was when there were no plants and no grass and no rain, of course it was before Adam. When God put Adam in the garden there were already plants and food on the trees.
2: 5 In the day when the Lord God made earth and heaven there were no plants of the field on the earth, and no grass had come up: for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to do work on the land.
I think it's something like this:
(A) no man to till the ground --> (B) there were hunters outside the garden --> (C) a transition from hunters to farmers outside the garden (??) ---> (D) God put Adam into the garden.
What I don't know is how long it was the period of time between "no man to till the ground" and "God put Adam into the garden" (A and D) and what was happening during this time outside the garden. The time when there were no plants no grass no rain (2:5) must be very long before Adam, it didn't last until God put Adam in the garden (2:7) since by the time Adam was in the garden there were plants.
--- Quote ---God said there was no man to till and then right there gave the solution for that, He created Adam to tend and keep the garden.
--- End quote ---
Right, but the verse only mentions it's inside the garden, it doesn't say what was happening outside the garden.
If the Scripture does speak pretty clearly to you, that's fine. It doesn't clear to me. When we were in babylon, we were told the science was wrong about Adam not being the first human. Now we found out that science is right all along. I am not saying the science is always right. It's just something I am not sure (yet). I know Ray spoke about this, I wish we had the chance to ask him how about all those reseaches that show farmers before Adam. I know this forum is for discussing Ray's work, since we can't verify it with Ray now, we can leave it at that if you like.
One more thing - Ray did say "It was from this first group of humanity that Cain apparently got his wife, cities were built, etc." So the first group of humanity (the hunters as you call them) did build cities? If they could build cities, how hard was it for them to grow food? Besides, the fact that they built the cities indicates that they had settled down, it also indicates they had another way to find food besides hunting.
John from Kentucky:
Since God gave me the understanding that the creation account is a parable and not literally true, but contains profound spiritual truths, I do not have a problem with others who understand things differently.
I do not have to do the mental gymnastics to try to fit a parable to a literal understanding or a modern scientific understanding.
Whether you are an atheistic evolutionist or a fundamentalist Christian who believes every word is literally true, you will believe as you are led to believe.
Jesus is the true Savior. Only He can give true understanding. Until He frees you, you will be a prisoner of your own thoughts and beliefs.
HINT: Follow the two witnesses and Jesus will give you understanding if you seek it with all your heart.
Kat:
Zvezda, in Genesis 2 it starts out by saying...
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
v. 2 And on the seventh day God finished His work that He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all his work that He had done.
v. 3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all His work that He had done in creation.
v. 4 These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
It says there quite specifically that the works of the beginning of creation "were finished," and that would certainly have included plants...
Gen 1:11 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so.
When you come down to verse 5 in Genesis 2, I see that is where you are making your assumptions that there are no plants on the earth at that time.
Gen 2:5 before any plant of the field was in the earth H776 and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth H776, and there was no man to till the ground;
Consider that the word "earth" in this verse is the same word uses in the account for the flood that came on the "earth" and we know a better word there was 'land,' as the flood only covered a portion of land that God had predetermined for it to.
So in Genesis 2 where it had just stated that the work of creation was finished, then in verse 5 I believe it is probable that the word did not mean the whole earth and should have been 'land' as the ESV has it.
Gen 2:5 When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground,
It seems that God is saying that this portion of "land" in verse 5 was a desolate place with no plants growing there and how did He remedy that...
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east...
This was a special place/garden God was preparing for Adam, there on a certain land that He was going to bring into being.
v. 8 ...and there He put the man whom He had formed.
v. 9 And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food...
This was a very special place, not just because of all the herbs and fruits that were put there, though I can see they were a necessity, because it would taken time for Adam (a new creature) to learn how to tend and grow food... but the main thing that made that place so special was the Tree of Life.
v. 9 ...The tree of life was in the midst of the garden...
God was there with Adam teaching him all that He wanted this man to bring into the world and I don't think it was just farming, but that was certainly part of it. Adam taught Cain to be a farmer, but the curse took that away (Gen 4:11-12), and it was Cain that went out and built the city, so through Adam great changes were coming to the world. Adam taught his son Cain, and he could teach the other people how to farm and obviously how to build, you can see how quickly that knowledge, starting with Adam, was being spread to the world.
Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he (Cain) built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son—Enoch.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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