> General Discussions
Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
virginiabm:
Hi Gina and Alex, I really appreciate the feed back on my thoughts about Jesus and Mary. I can let my mind rest a litttle now, because as you both pointed out, Jesus would never show disrepect to His Mother in any way, which I didn't think He did. Alex you made a good point by saying that Jesus treated Mary the same as others, because we are all the same to Him.
The reason I spoke of Mary as Just a disciple, is because that is what I consider myself to be while I'm on my way to being an elect of God, that is if I am one of the Few, which I hope I will be. My thoughts on this was just thoughts, whatever Jesus called His Mother was said Out of Love and respect.
I thank you both for your insight and encouragment. I will go on seeking and sharing my Love for Jesus.
I love you all my BT family.
With Love, Virginia Miller
Kat:
--- Quote from: octoberose on June 01, 2015, 08:03:18 PM ---I knew this would lead to a conversation!
Psalms 51:5 " Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me." Part of my quandary is this- a baby is still sinful and he has done nothing willfully wrong. Surely Christ died for him too. He will be held accountable too. I don't get the how. But that is correct, right? But Jesus is different because he was not 'conceived in sin. My head hurts with this. Didn't Ray say that a baby would not be in the elect, because they had not learned or obeyed or had the wisdom of the elect? Something like that.
So, Kat, you're saying that since death is brought to us by Adam, sin was introduced because God made us sinful, so what Jesus' mortal body 'inherited" was that he lived in a body and became a man.
I can wrap my head around that.
--- End quote ---
Hi octoberose, I don't think I would consider a newborn babe sinful... it's just learning how to think and it's cries are because it needs something, not out of disobedience. And there are severely mentally handicapped people who really are unable to comprehend right from wrong, I don't think they are capable of sin either. Certainly Christ died for all sins, and accountability will not be neglected of anybody, but for all those babies and the mentally ill, His sacrifice will apply as they need it and they will in the next age. So then it is because He was the firstfruit in resurrection, so now they too can be given a new life in the age to come.
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
v. 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
v. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
v. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.
v. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
v. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
v. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
v. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
v. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Here Paul is trying to explain that there will indeed be a resurrection from the dead... some just found this teaching very hard to believe. But what Paul is saying is we have assurance of that, because Christ was raised up as a proof and guarantee of it.
So if babies and the mentally ill actually do not need His sacrifice yet, they certainly need His resurrection. Christ was the firstfruit to be resurrected and everybody else will eventually be raised "in his own order" (1Co 15:23), because we know God can and did resurrect Him and will raise us too as He said He would.
Little babies will be brought back to life and raised up in a peaceful world and taught righteousness and the mentally ill will be healed and given a new life in the age to come. I believe this because God is merciful and His judgments will be perfect.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.
Psa 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face.
Isa 16:5 In mercy the throne will be established; And One will sit on it in truth, in the tabernacle of David, Judging and seeking justice and hastening righteousness."
Psa 116:5 Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; Yes, our God is merciful.
Rev 16:7 And I heard another from the altar saying, "Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments."
Isa 26:9 With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Gina:
--- Quote from: octoberose on June 01, 2015, 08:03:18 PM ---I knew this would lead to a conversation!
Psalms 51:5 " Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me." Part of my quandary is this- a baby is still sinful and he has done nothing willfully wrong. Surely Christ died for him too. He will be held accountable too. I don't get the how. But that is correct, right? But Jesus is different because he was not 'conceived in sin. My head hurts with this. Didn't Ray say that a baby would not be in the elect, because they had not learned or obeyed or had the wisdom of the elect? Something like that.
So, Kat, you're saying that since death is brought to us by Adam, sin was introduced because God made us sinful, so what Jesus' mortal body 'inherited" was that he lived in a body and became a man.
I can wrap my head around that.
In reference to Virginia's comment - as I understand it, calling a woman Gune' - the greek for woman- could be a sign of respect or just how a woman was addressed. Kind of depended on the context. But Jesus did do as his mother wanted when he turned the water into wine even though it was not 'his plan'. So, that was respectful. And then Jesus 'gave' Mary to John as a mother , gave John to Mary as a son. So some of his last breaths were in caring for her.
Gina, I love your passion. I love, love the story of Jesus as a 12 year old and his parents frantically searching for him and he's 'doing his Father's business". What I believe God led me to about that was that Mary and Joseph were so shocked by his answer because They Had Never Told Him Who He Was. How do you mention that to a child that his true father is the Creator of the Universe? They had not told him, But The Holy Spirit did. I'm always amused by people who think that Mary forgot who Jesus was and didn't understand what he was saying. I am the mother of three regular kids and I can tell you the when and where and how I had them. Mary cherished all these things in her heart and didn't forget a thing. She had just never told Jesus who He was. I'm sure she knew God would in His time.
--- End quote ---
Hi Octoberose,
That blue part I put there was from one of Ray's papers. I didn't write that myself. They were amazed because of where they found him -- in the temple. They did not understand this statement: "Did you not know that I must be about my Father's business?"
Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was with depravity when I was travailed in birth, And in sin when my mother conceived me." (Concordant Literal Version)
That's probably not the best rendering of that verse. Babies are conceived and born INTO the world AROUND them which is filled with sin and depravity. It doesn't mean that the baby itself is filled with sin or depravity at the time of conception and birth. Doesn't even mean that the mother (or father) were sinning during the baby's conception, necessarily. It just means sin was already in the world OUTSIDE, ready and waiting so to speak, that the baby would be subject to and fall prey to.
Joel:
Deuteronomy 1:39 provides a good clue as to babies and young children.
39- Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
Joel
Gina:
Good verse. I was also thinking about this verse:
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity (frustration/futility/sin/depravity), not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay (death) and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
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