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I will pour out My spirit on all flesh...
Ian 155:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on July 24, 2015, 04:48:39 PM ---Well I'm not entirely sure what Ian is going on about with the "future day/ eon" concept but the scriptures certainly speak of a comming ressurection of the dead, a day of judgment for the world, and a day when we ourselves will finally recieve our awaited change and birth into the kingdom of God. My scriptures serve to supplement what Kat has already shared.
You have gone off the subject but for interest sake I will comment on your understanding with my understanding hope you do the same
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
pray show me a second witness to what you think this verse means
nevermind you wont find one
1 Corinthians 15:12-18
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? I d like to know too
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: makes sence
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. makes more sense
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. yep
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:mmmm
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Scary
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. What does he mean by ALSO ?
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:50-52
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. yeah correct carnal minds cannot
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,so will we all sleep or wont we ?
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.And what is this trumpet? i think Ray said its a "warning" a huge one a final one
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Yes we are CALLED son's of God but we have not attained all that which being called such entails.
Isa 9:6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us....
Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and CALLS those things which be NOT as though they were.
give us your explanation ...
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
When is it that He does appear ?
Philippians 3:8-14
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Has this happened to you yet ?
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: so its not up to us ?
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; do you know the power of HIS resurrection ?
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
dead as in no air or dead as in no spirit ?
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, IF that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:18-23
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. like im saying is shall referring to after we sleep ?
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. when is now ?
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. oh Is it our physical body that is resurrected ? with a spiritual twist
Let anyone who trembles at the Word of God never forget that it is the SUM of the Word that is truth and in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Let Jesus plain words make this matter clear and final:
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
If you're still alive kicking and screaming and suffering then you havn't endured unto the end yet. We are still not there! You have not yet been saved.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
We havn't over come yet, we are still fighting the good fight. Fight unto the end as Paul layed out the example and Christ before Him. Paul seems to differ he said "I have run the race",he further said (perhaps he was being arrogant ) I know there awaits a wreath for me - to my understanding ya don't get a wreath if you don't run da race
When you are finally born into the kingdom of God you will know it. You will be powerful and invisible like the wind. Really?
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
And this means one is gonna be powerful and invisible like the wind ?I was under the impression that the spirit was gentle similar to that of a Dove could this not be literal, but likened too?
Children, sons and daughters of God, with a promise of a glorious future, we are, but we have not yet attained to that which we follow after.
God bless,
Alex
Me thinks there is a huge gap in interpreting the word
perhaps you can comment on the below scriptures ...
Luk 2:26 And he had received an answer from the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death before he had seen the Christ of the Lord.
Mat 16:28 Amen I say to you, there are some of them that stand here, that shall not taste death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Joh 8:52 The Jews therefore said: Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets: and thou sayest: If any man keep my word, he shall not taste death for ever.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was transferred, so as not to be acquainted with death, and was not found, because God transfers him. For before his transference he is attested to have pleased God well."
Joh 3:15 that everyone believing on Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian.
--- End quote ---
The spirit working in us gives us understanding otherwise we are dead (carnal)perhaps i am
lilitalienboi16:
Hi Ian,
I will direct this reply to your last post addressed to myself.
You asked for a second witness to 2 Timoth 2:18 and I gave them to you immediately following. Let me highlight specifically were paul makes it clear the resurrection is future:
1 Cor 15:20-24
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end , when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Then there is 1 Cor 15:50-52 where paul makes it clear it is at the Last trumpet, the 'at his coming.'
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
This is exactly what John echoes when He says, "WHEN He shall appear, we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is (1 John 3:2)." This is the "change" paul speaks about. The incorruptible that we put on is not of the physical body as you ask but is a change to the physical to a spiritual one for those who overcome.
1 Corinthians 15:42-49
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15:52-54
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So WHEN this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Christ echoed these same thoughts about a day of return when He gathers to Himself the elect:
Matthew 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The very same trumpet paul was speaking of. The last trumpet when He appears and we see Him as He is and the dead are raised.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-18
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
There is also more of the same in this:
Matthew 24:37-39
37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Luke 21:27-29
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Death has not be swallowed up in victory. Christ has not yet returned. The last trumpet has not yet sounded. The ressurection has not yet occured. We have not yet SEEN Christ with our eyes and be changed into His same form and complete spiritual character. We are currently undergoing a process that will continue until the day we die. We have this "HOPE" and so we purify ourselves because of that beautiful promise that is set out before us.
Philipians 1:6 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Philippians 2:12-16
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Romans 4:17 requires no explenation. It is as paul states that God calls the things which are not as though they were. We are CALLED Sons of God for the very same reason. God see's us for what we will be. Its the very same reason God could die for the sins of the world and all the wicked and perverse people because He see's them for who they will be in Christ.
The spirit is gentle as a dove and powerful enough to bring this entire universe to life with all its awesome displays of natural forces. The same way God is Love but also hated Esau and has stored up wrath for the day against those who would trampled under foot the Son of God.
Now as for paul stating He ran the race faithfully. Here is exactly what paul said:
2 Tim 4:6-8
6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Paul said this because He knew He was about to be offered up as a sacrifice. He knew that the end of his life was upon him. You may be fortunate enough like Paul to know at the end of your life that you have overcome but since none of us is at the end of our lives yet we can't know if this is something every Elect of God will have with certainty in their heart or if it was just given to some very few like Paul and others prior to their being martyred for the gospel's sake. So with that, I leave you to wrestle with these scriptures as you please. Those that are God's cannot be lost. His Word is truth and the scriptures cannot be broken.
There is nothing wrong with looking for the spiritual aspect and the dueality of meaning in the scriptures but it does become a problem when you start contradicting many other plain verses of scripture so that you can keep this new found "spiritual" interpretation.
God be with you,
Alex
P.S. I did not address your final four scriptures you presented as I would rather deal with one concept at a time. We are talking about a future day so I will stick with that. I also have to actually be leaving now and cannot continue my post any further. Perhaps later if God wills I will address the remaining four verses.
Kat:
Yes the elect are spiritually raised from spiritual death now in this life, being baptized into His death, then with the earnest of the Spirit they put on the 'new man/woman.'
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
v. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?
mercy, peace and love
Kathy
rick:
--- Quote from: Kat on July 25, 2015, 02:52:30 PM ---
I guess a simple question to you Ian, is do you think there is a literal bodily resurrection for the elect yet to come in the future?
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
I don’t wish to become confused by your question to Ian, you had mentioned a bodily resurrection from the grave ?
My understanding from Ray is that God is not going to resurrect our bodies after we die, they are going to decay but what I understood is that God will give everyone a new body.
God’s elect will receive a spiritual body and the rest will receive a new fleshly body. Is this understanding correct ?
sansmile:
great thread :)
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