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Patriotism, nationalism, and statism as forms of idolatry
repottinger:
And thank you, John, for such pertinent scriptures about differentiating between our responsibilities to God and the Government.
Randy
lareli:
--- Quote from: repottinger on September 25, 2015, 09:50:44 AM ---Well, Largeli, I think that if I add emphases to some of the passages I had cited, it might help to answer your questions:
Romans 13:1-7, AKJV
13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
I Peter 2:13-17, AKJV
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16 as free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. 17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
So we see that the representative of the state (which would include such things as the government, military, and police, I would think) “is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil,” and that these ministers “are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers.” To me, this means that they are there for our legitimate use (as in reporting a serious violent crime like a murder or robbery) and that, if we call upon them, we aren’t “living by the sword,” but, in effect, using one kind of “evildoer” (the government representative, who stands for and upholds the Babylonian world system)--from a Christian standpoint, since we are not “of the world”--to “punish” another (the criminal).
Thanks a lot for such interesting thoughts on the subject.
Randy
--- End quote ---
I have trouble understanding why Paul and Peter wrote these verses. I pray the Lord gives me wisdom to understand these verses.. Paul and Peter were both preaching Jesus Christ who was killed by the government. Paul himself persecuted Christs followers.. I believe Peter and most of the other apostles would soon be executed by the government also.
History is tells us that government is the leading cause of violent death. The Jewish and Christian holocaust of ww2 was legal. Which is to say it was sanctioned by the government. Slavery was legal.
I can understand obeying and complying with the rulers and authorities even if they're wicked. Same as turning the other cheek when wronged. I can even obey and comply with full joy.. No problem. They are ordained by God, absolutely. But to say that they aren't a terror to those who do good? I can't understand that because in many governments it has been or is to this day illegal to have a bible... Feed a homeless person... Illegal to be a certain race... Illegal to pray...
This brings us full circle back to the Nationalism/Statism as a religion issue... So is it that if one takes the commandments (laws) of a government and uses these laws as their barometer for what is good and evil then that is what constitutes a religion?
Obeying and submitting to the authorities which God has established over us is a good thing. But that doesn't mean that those authorities themselves are good. I don't believe Paul or Peter ever said that the authorities themselves are good... Unless I'm missing it. They did say that they are there for good but not that they are good.
I can obey and submit but I can't say that governments are at all righteous because governments are simply man ruling over man using violence albeit by Gods will. But if I pray for His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven then I can't approve of things being done on earth as they are done on earth. When Christ comes to rule, man will no longer rule over his fellow man with violence. Righteousness will rule and until then wicked man will rule.. All by Gods will of course.
I'm thinking out loud at this point.. I'll continue to pray for wisdom.
rick:
Hi Largeli,
Ray talked about the synagogue of Satan of Jesus’s day and asked if you think the church has gotten any better ?
Do you think the governments of the world have gotten any better ? I look at everything that is happening on planet earth like this, we are here for and experience of good and evil, what goes on we can agree is not right but its necessary for becoming sons and daughters of God.
Also, God has given us and experience of evil to humble us. Also remember Ray talking about virtue, one has to overcome some form of evil if they are to receive virtue.
I believe it will be easier in the next age for anyone who goes through the lake of fire because Jesus will reign as king of kings and I would assume that right doing will be rewarded unlike it is in this age.
These days I no longer look at what’s going on directly but rather ask what is its meaning and more over what am I to learn or understand from it.
If God wanted this age to be the garden of Eden He could of made it that way, obvious its not His intentions at this time, so with patients, love and forgiveness, worry about nothing in this life for God says we cannot change a single hair on our head white or black by worrying so be anxious for nothing. And keep praying.
God bless. :)
repottinger:
Those are great points, Rick—especially about the importance of learning from our experiences on this earth in preparing us to one day rule as sons and daughters of God.
Thanks a lot,
Randy
repottinger:
You ask a lot of fantastic questions, Largeli, and I’m sure that there are a lot of people who are more well-qualified than I am to answer them. I just think that our attitude toward government should be like that of the Old Testament patriarchs and prophets (though not that of leaders such as Moses, Joshua, and the judges and kings, who were acting under God-ordained governments, unlike all believers since their time) and Christ and the apostles in the New—one of peaceful submission, unless we are asked to do things contrary to God’s word:
Acts 5:29, AKJV
29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
And I agree with you that worldly governments are not righteous by any means—they’re of the world, and so could never be considered so by God’s people:
John 17:9, AKJV
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
John 18:36, AKJV
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
I John 2:16, AKJV
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
This probably hasn’t been very helpful to you, but I’ll be sure to pray for God to increase your understanding and peace of mind (along with that of the rest of us) on this difficult subject.
Sincerely,
Randy
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