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The Cross

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Kat:

Hi Jeff, you have asked what we all have surely wondered as we see a world that is so filled with war, crime, disasters, and depravity of every kind and why does it have to be so?

Well the way that I have come to see this, is that God came up with a plan that He envisioned from start to finish as perfect, with His wisdom that is so far beyond what we can think or imagine. This incredible God wanted to create beings capable of understanding the joy and pleasures that He knew, so His plan was formed to accomplish that end.

Now we know that everything in this world is just as He determined it to be. God could have designed the human body any way He chose, but what we have is perfectly designed for what He wanted... indeed it is an absolute marvel of design. He created us to have sensations through our senses, so we can experience the physical world around us in a personal way. This was not done by fluke, but by brilliant design, knowing exactly what He desired for His creation to learn from their experience of life. He created us to live this life in a personal way with feeling and emotions and to understand what it is the care for another person, to love and and feel joy... we also were created to feel pain, sadness and hate. We have a mind that is intelligent, that can  reason, plan, that can seek revenge, or willingly die to protect a loved one.

We think that there is so much wickedness in the world and there is a lot, but this is to the degree that God knew was needed and necessary. But as Alex was saying God has framed in what there is, so that there is a limit, I mean the human body can just take so much abuse and then it dies, it's life is terminated... He could have created the body to endure much more than it does, but He didn't. Look at what the church has come up with, hell, a place of unceasing torment and they attribute that to our God... they could not be further from the truth. But why do we have as much suffering as we do?

One thing I see in this creation process is that He is creating individuals of us all, and this requires a broad range of experiences. This life provides us with experiences in good and evil, with the emphasis on the evil I think... but why? Well I think we all need to experience evil in order to fully understand it... still I think you would wonder why so much. All I can figure is that God knows to what degree we need this experience in evil to make an impression that we will never forget, we forget things rather quickly and things is the past fade in our memory.

I believe we need a experience of evil as a backdrop in our understanding, to learn how deplorable it is. We can't forget that there is good as well, it's not all bad. But whatever we experience, both good and evil form a character in us. All these characteristics vary from person to person from the individual experiences they have, creating an unique person every time. This character/personality is needed as a base, as a persons own inter framework of thinking, that God has something to work with.

I have every confidence that God's plan will bring about justification to every single human being in the ages to come. His plan is perfect and this is just the first phase of it, we cannot understand how He intends to compensate for what is suffered in this life. It has occurred to me that those that suffer the most in this age could receive so great reparation as to remove all their distress... surely God can repair what is broken by His design.

Jer 18:4  And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.

Thinking of the people that have been the most wicked... this has been an age of atrocities of every kind, people have actually made an art of war and how to kill people. In history battles were hand to hand combat, some (maybe many) have been soldiers by trade, their whole life. When these are finally brought to repentance and really understand the depths of their sins, how can they deal with what all the suffering they know they have caused? Look at this parable.

Luke 7:41  "There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty.
v. 42  And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?"
v. 43  Simon answered and said, "I suppose the one whom he forgave more." And He said to him, "You have rightly judged."

Luke 7:47  Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

So maybe those that have caused so much suffering, when God has forgiven them and purged them and set them right, they will have so much forgiven and they will feel so much joy in their love of God, maybe to the greatest degree of all.

It's hard to know what will take place in the next age, maybe we just can't, but I feel certain that God plan is perfect start to finish for bringing about this human race to a very happy and glorious outcome.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Jeff:
Sorry.  It was more of a lament than anything.  I know we don't have the answers.  I believe the same that all of you do and I shouldn't be putting it on God.  Only God is good.  Maybe it was more a written prayer. I don't know why it struck me the way it did.  I suppose the thought of some people suffering horrifically their entire lives is a difficult thing to accept.  The things we do to each other are terrifying.  I would imagine that some things may have even improved, it's just so prolific with respect to the size of the population.  I also see good in the world and I know where that comes from just as I know where the evil comes from.

John from Kentucky:
Both good and evil come from God.  God created evil.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.  Isa 45:7

dave:
I have been reading Installment XV, Part C and towards the end there is a lot that may help. Just my two cents.

lilitalienboi16:

--- Quote ---Job suffered, but that's the point . He suffered greatly and through no fault of his own. When an innocent child suffers at the hand of someone who should have protected him or her, how is that less than what God suffered?  How, in His name is it not more?  We are feeble and I'll-equipped to cope.

I can believe that God suffers when a child is sexually abused and murdered, but where do I go from there?  I'm struggling to understand how that can benefit anyone.

We are evil, as a race, beyond comprehension.  We seem no better than Sodom - worse even. Where is our Savior?

Have faith?  The evil we bring, the hatred in our hearts, the depravity, is more than we should be able to bear.

If a child is raped and murdered God is not allowing this?  I beg to differ.  God is Soverign. If you saw a child being raped, you in your sinful, carnal nature, you would do nothing? Is it not God who prompts us to act?!

I don't know the mind of God, but I can not.  In my sinful, natural state, I'm to abhor things like this, I know in my spirit that these things are evil.

God put an end to this evil once, and only God can put an end to what we've wrought on this earth now.  I'll ask again, where is our Savior?

I understand the benefit of trials and tribulations and I thank God for them and ask for strength to endure.  What does a 5 year old girl have to fall back on as her step father is beating her or worse?

God IS SOVERIEGN! He is responsible, WE are accountable.

We sit by in our chairs and watch while 100,000 die in Syria, while madmen rape women in order to convert them to Islam.  Rather than live this evil, and be content, and not be anxious for anything, these women take their own lives.

Why?  Justify this.  Help me understand. Platitudes and assurances aren't enough.  Where do the Scriptures allow this and WHY?

I'm not blaming God, but to assume that Ray's papers tell us everything is foolish.  I can understand if you want to end this thread because it reaches out beyond what he was shown, but this site is a tribute to God, foremost. Period.  This is about God.  If you think the work ended with Ray then, so be it.
--- End quote ---


Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Romans 9:19-22
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Job 35:1-2 Elihu spake moreover, and said,  Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

Job 35:3-16
3 For thou saidst, What advantage will it be unto thee? and, What profit shall I have, if I be cleansed from my sin?
4 I will answer thee, and thy companions with thee.
5 Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds which are higher than thou.
6 If thou sinnest, what doest thou against him? or if thy transgressions be multiplied, what doest thou unto him?
7 If thou be righteous, what givest thou him? or what receiveth he of thine hand?
8 Thy wickedness may hurt a man as thou art; and thy righteousness may profit the son of man.
9 By reason of the multitude of oppressions they make the oppressed to cry: they cry out by reason of the arm of the mighty.
10 But none saith, Where is God my maker, who giveth songs in the night;
11 Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth, and maketh us wiser than the fowls of heaven?
12 There they cry, but none giveth answer, because of the pride of evil men.
13 Surely God will not hear vanity, neither will the Almighty regard it.
14 Although thou sayest thou shalt not see him, yet judgment is before him; therefore trust thou in him.
15 But now, because it is not so, he hath visited in his anger; yet he knoweth it not in great extremity:
16 Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain; he multiplieth words without knowledge.

Job 36:1-33

1 Elihu also proceeded, and said,
2 Suffer me a little, and I will shew thee that I have yet to speak on God's behalf.
3 I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker.
4 For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee.
5 Behold, God is mighty, and despiseth not any: he is mighty in strength and wisdom.
6 He preserveth not the life of the wicked: but giveth right to the poor.
7 He withdraweth not his eyes from the righteous: but with kings are they on the throne; yea, he doth establish them for ever, and they are exalted.
8 And if they be bound in fetters, and be holden in cords of affliction;
9 Then he sheweth them their work, and their transgressions that they have exceeded.
10 He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity.
11 If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.
12 But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.
13 But the hypocrites in heart heap up wrath: they cry not when he bindeth them.
14 They die in youth, and their life is among the unclean.
15 He delivereth the poor in his affliction, and openeth their ears in oppression.
16 Even so would he have removed thee out of the strait into a broad place, where there is no straitness; and that which should be set on thy table should be full of fatness.
17 But thou hast fulfilled the judgment of the wicked: judgment and justice take hold on thee.
18 Because there is wrath, beware lest he take thee away with his stroke: then a great ransom cannot deliver thee.
19 Will he esteem thy riches? no, not gold, nor all the forces of strength.
20 Desire not the night, when people are cut off in their place.
21 Take heed, regard not iniquity: for this hast thou chosen rather than affliction.
22 Behold, God exalteth by his power: who teacheth like him?
23 Who hath enjoined him his way? or who can say, Thou hast wrought iniquity?
24 Remember that thou magnify his work, which men behold.
25 Every man may see it; man may behold it afar off.
26 Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.
27 For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof:
28 Which the clouds do drop and distil upon man abundantly.
29 Also can any understand the spreadings of the clouds, or the noise of his tabernacle?
30 Behold, he spreadeth his light upon it, and covereth the bottom of the sea.
31 For by them judgeth he the people; he giveth meat in abundance.
32 With clouds he covereth the light; and commandeth it not to shine by the cloud that cometh betwixt.
33 The noise thereof sheweth concerning it, the cattle also concerning the vapour.

Job 37: 1-24

1 At this also my heart trembleth, and is moved out of his place.
2 Hear attentively the noise of his voice, and the sound that goeth out of his mouth.
3 He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.
4 After it a voice roareth: he thundereth with the voice of his excellency; and he will not stay them when his voice is heard.
5 God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend.
6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain, and to the great rain of his strength.
7 He sealeth up the hand of every man; that all men may know his work.
8 Then the beasts go into dens, and remain in their places.
9 Out of the south cometh the whirlwind: and cold out of the north.
10 By the breath of God frost is given: and the breadth of the waters is straitened.
11 Also by watering he wearieth the thick cloud: he scattereth his bright cloud:
12 And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth.
13 He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy.
14 Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God.
15 Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine?
16 Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?
17 How thy garments are warm, when he quieteth the earth by the south wind?
18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
19 Teach us what we shall say unto him; for we cannot order our speech by reason of darkness.
20 Shall it be told him that I speak? if a man speak, surely he shall be swallowed up.
21 And now men see not the bright light which is in the clouds: but the wind passeth, and cleanseth them.
22 Fair weather cometh out of the north: with God is terrible majesty.
23 Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.
24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart

Job 38:1-3
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

No one said that ray provided all the answers. Many of us have moved beyond what ray has written. Reconciliation of all is simply the milk of the word but as I said, Ray has written a great deal on this particular subject and by your posts it seems to me you missed quiet a bit. Number me not among those who feel that your questions cannot be answered because I do believe God has provided us a great deal of answers through His Word. Your questions are not wrong but it is clear, that while you may verbally object to blaming God, you have attributed to Him some injustice where there isn't any. That is wrong.

God be with you,
Alex

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