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The Cross
lareli:
I agree with Alex and the rest..
Many have had the same inquiries and understand where your emotions are coming from. You're working some stuff out in your heart, wrestling with God and that's good Jeff! It's how we grow.. I think if you pray and re-read some of these replies you will eventually reach a place of more understanding than you do at this moment.
Dennis Vogel:
--- Quote ---I think Jesus suffered a lot more than just one day at the Cross
--- End quote ---
A side note:
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
As a man Jesus did not sin. He did not have to learn obedience as a man. His suffering on earth was not caused by His lack of obedience. He was our perfect example.
Ray touched on this in the 2007 Nashville conference.
Jeff:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on October 09, 2015, 04:47:55 PM ---
--- Quote ---I think Jesus suffered a lot more than just one day at the Cross
--- End quote ---
A side note:
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
As a man Jesus did not sin. He did not have to learn obedience as a man. His suffering on earth was not caused by His lack of obedience. He was our perfect example.
Ray touched on this in the 2007 Nashville conference.
--- End quote ---
This is true. It also occurred to me that Jesus' suffering wasn't the main point. It had great significance - God knows what we go through - but the reason He died was to save us from that very thing, eventually. He didn't need to suffer for 60 years in order to accomplish the Father's will. His sacrifice is all that mattered.
I hate this world with passion. Not the people, just the way things are.
rick:
Hi Jeff,
These are the things we must experience to some degree.
Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
Ecc 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
Ecc 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
Ecc 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
Ecc 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
Ecc 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
God bless. :)
Colin:
Hello everybody
I had been reading through Ray’s LOF part 12 and many thoughts came to mind; one, particularly, was the supremacy of God the Father.
So many times I have “revisited” articles which I had read with delight years earlier and now, today, I still find they reveal even more and give rise to ideas, which had “escaped my full attention” those first few times.
As we are a “work in progress”, so, too, is our progressive understanding, as we “work through our path of life”.
Under the (third) subheading ONLY GOD IS THE SOVEREIGNTY OF THE SEA, Ray discusses the incident where the disciples were being tossed around in their small boat in a severe storm…..an extract:-
When we come to understanding spiritual things, we will clearly see that the ark represents Christ. We also have examples of Jesus saving His disciples from the raging waves of the Sea [lake] of Galilee.
"And when He was entered into a ship, His disciples followed Him. And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was COVERED WITH THE WAVES [‘and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was already filling, Mk 4:37]: but He was asleep. …………Then He arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea: and there was a great calm. But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him!" (Matt. 8:23-27).
Does anyone have the slightest doubt that Jesus possesses the power to calm the sea? Is any man or group of men more powerful than the sea? Then why, oh why, do we allow theologians, clergymen, pastors, preachers, teachers and authors to tell us that Jesus Christ is POWERLESS TO CALM THE SEA OF HUMANITY? That man possesses a raging power of "free will" that even God Himself cannot and will not penetrate or calm? No, my friends, "…the winds and the sea OBEY HIM!"
While acknowledging, as Ray went on to make clear, that there is a spiritual lesson to be learned from this account, nevertheless, what the disciples experienced was real.
I have been on a much larger ship than the smaller (fishing) boat the disciples were on and during an ocean voyage back to Tasmania, we were met with gale force winds, where we could not stand or walk - with the ship being buffeted by monstrous waves. It was an unnerving experience.
Could we imagine, as happened to the disciples, any man on board rebuking the waves and the winds….followed by a great calm?
We’d be asking the same question in utter amazement ….”what sort of man can do THAT?” Taking it to a spiritual level, we still tend to enquire inwardly, “where is there anybody able to get us out of this mess that our world is in?
Why do some people have it so “rough”? When is it time for it to cease? Where is our Saviour?
I do it myself to some degree, despite knowing full well that in the “long run” all WILL be fixed. Jeff has raised the same kind of thoughts that many of us harbour, to some degree.
I have "overlooked" the fact that God controls actual weather conditions. Jesus certainly did on the lake/sea of Galilee.
Sure, it’s easy to say “oh, with life’s storms, it’s a matter of faith”….yes that is true, and a next step for us is to ask that it to be strengthened.
Not only the faith that is given to us, but also to seek a clearer understanding of WHY our lives have been foreordained the way they are. Much of what Ray presented contains information, inspired from God’s word, which we can “unearth” to assist us.
Jesus told His disciples it was a lack of faith that caused them to have a level of fear.
Matt 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
Where did Jesus obtain this “mastery of the wind and waves”? He told His disciples that of (by) Himself, He could do nothing.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Later, He told His disciples that without Him, THEY TOO could do nothing. That includes all of us. So, as we face the “spiritual winds and waves” of life, none of us can rebuke or avoid (or quieten) them.
Ray continues in the LOF part 12, to show the symbolism and the link between the lake of fire and the buffeting we endure, in the process of being made more aware of our calling.
We are told that Jesus asked the question about faith when He returns;
Luke 18:6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith. 7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
The implied answer is “no”……or very little. Certainly the world in general does not understand that God is carrying out His plan - the salvation of mankind, despite what might appear to most to be total doom, considering all the possible ways there are of eradicating life from this planet.
God’s plan is a masterful one.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
An example of a man honest enough to admit tearfully that he lacked faith is found in Mark 9. He had had no success after asking Jesus’ disciples for assistance.
Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
Another example of asking for more faith is found in Luke 17.
Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
I noted (in passing) that it is not a matter of letting a “wrong” go unnoticed, without anything being said – a rebuke is in order and then depending on the response, forgiveness is to follow.
Luke 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
The apostles found this a bit of a “handful” and admitted their lack in complying……. they needed help.
Luke 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
When I read of Jesus healing so many, the question arises….how was He able to do that, when He said that by Himself He could do nothing. It must have been His Father working through Him…..His Father is clearly supreme.
Healing involves the power to change bodily malfunctioning – destroying viruses, bacteria, straightening twisted ligaments, “mending damaged brains”…..we can easily read over the phrase “He [Jesus] healed” and give little thought to what it involves and how great a genius our Father is, to empower Jesus to perform the miracles.
I have wondered how the centurion displayed such faith, which, as far as he was concerned, only required Jesus to “speak the words”. The faith/confidence, which he had, came from God.
Mat 8:7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
Mat 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
It led Jesus to say, with surprise, He had not come across such in Israel.
When I consider that Jesus said He could have called on 12 legions of angels to deliver Him, [Matthew 26:53] I begin to get an idea of the faith that Jesus had in His Father to restore Him back to life……knowing that They had “agreed beforehand, with Jesus volunteering to die as He did, that was a supreme test of faith. It demonstrates for us His sincerity and absolute trust in His Father.
Jesus could see the “bigger picture”…..far better than we can, as we struggle to unravel the “mystery in the mirror”.
1 Cor 13:12 CLV For at present we are observing by means of a mirror, in an enigma, yet then, face to face.
Just before the 8th subheading THE WORLD IS GROANING FOR IT KNOWS NOT WHAT Ray wrote:
God is calling Sons and Daughters into Glory! All that He "foreknew" He will bring to fruition. But for what purpose? To roll ‘round heaven all day? To play harps and sing gospel music for all eternity? To glut ourselves on dainty foods like some fat monarch? What is God’s first order of the day when all these SONS of God are manifested? Just what will they do? Or will they do nothing? We read part of the answer in one of the Scriptures quoted above. Let’s read a little more.
‘There is a GRAND CHALLENGE AND MARVELLOUS WORK waiting to be accomplished by the manifested SONS OF GOD:
I appreciate the opportunity to share in the threads and learn from you, as we progress towards our "finish line". Colin
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