> General Discussions

"So - Is there any difference?"

<< < (8/21) > >>

Kat:

Hi lauriellen, I understand how these things (that I was speaking of and the things you are speaking of) seem to overlap and go together... but I was speaking of a very specific circumstance, using violent force for protection. When I said those things you quoted it was directly 'in connection' to that situation.

Mat 5:39  But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

When you turn to him the other cheek, that to me is saying do not use violent force even when provoked. Now when you bring up a whole other situation, "To do good, such as feeding the hungry, protecting the helpless, to free people from oppression, abuse, etc.," yes it is the way it is predetermined to be in this age, but those same quotes I said about not being violent, certainly would not and should not apply to our helping people in need.

Even thought this age is what it is and for now we "always have the poor" (Matt 26:11), it's not that we can change how this age is, but it is an opportunity to do good works and by helping the needy, I do not see it as resisting evil, but more like letting "your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven" (Matt 5:16).

Gal 6:9  And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
v. 10  Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

lauriellen:
I am really not trying to be argumentative. I realize this post is about violence and I understand the point being made. But, I think about this a lot....where do we draw the line? I agree that it is good to 'resist evil' by feeding the poor, doing good in a non-violent manner, etc., but where is the line? We can go "this" far, but not "this far"? And here is the reason I think upon these things so deeply. I live on a ranch. My family makes our living from livestock. I have defended my livestock many times by killing predators threatening my livestock. I have taken the life of downed cattle with broken legs/back, that will suffer and die horribly if not mercifully ending their suffering. But if a human predator was attacking my family, I would not be able to use  force to stop it? So, with the reasoning above, I can not protect my livestock, and I especially can not protect my family. By the reasoning above, would I not be obligated to stop raising livestock all together for food, as I know they are being raised to be killed (which is a form of violence against animals) ? Should I become a vegetarian farmer instead? I wonder how many here are strictly vegans because eating meat means the killing of animals and is violent? As far as I understand, Jesus ate meat? Or, perhaps, was His instructions to not resist evil a specific instruction given to a specific group (the deciples) for a specific ministry? I know He said AS MUCH AS IT DEPENDS ON YOU, live peaceably with all men (and I feel like I do this), so does that also give a little room for the reasonable action to protect using the minimum amount of force possible? I don't know the answer, and I am not sure that there is just ONE answer to every situation. I take no joy from any form of violence, but I have accepted that it is a part of the world we live in, and weather we take up arms or just eat meat, we are participating in it weather we acknowledge it or not. If anyone who has not watched an animal being butchered thinks that it is not violent, I urge you to just watch it once. It will change your perspective on those pretty little packages of meat you buy at the grocery store.
respectfully,
lauriellen

lilitalienboi16:

--- Quote from: lauriellen on November 29, 2015, 11:02:00 AM ---I am really not trying to be argumentative. I realize this post is about violence and I understand the point being made. But, I think about this a lot....where do we draw the line? I agree that it is good to 'resist evil' by feeding the poor, doing good in a non-violent manner, etc., but where is the line? We can go "this" far, but not "this far"? And here is the reason I think upon these things so deeply. I live on a ranch. My family makes our living from livestock. I have defended my livestock many times by killing predators threatening my livestock. I have taken the life of downed cattle with broken legs/back, that will suffer and die horribly if not mercifully ending their suffering. But if a human predator was attacking my family, I would not be able to use  force to stop it? So, with the reasoning above, I can not protect my livestock, and I especially can not protect my family. By the reasoning above, would I not be obligated to stop raising livestock all together for food, as I know they are being raised to be killed (which is a form of violence against animals) ? Should I become a vegetarian farmer instead? I wonder how many here are strictly vegans because eating meat means the killing of animals and is violent? As far as I understand, Jesus ate meat? Or, perhaps, was His instructions to not resist evil a specific instruction given to a specific group (the deciples) for a specific ministry? I know He said AS MUCH AS IT DEPENDS ON YOU, live peaceably with all men (and I feel like I do this), so does that also give a little room for the reasonable action to protect using the minimum amount of force possible? I don't know the answer, and I am not sure that there is just ONE answer to every situation. I take no joy from any form of violence, but I have accepted that it is a part of the world we live in, and weather we take up arms or just eat meat, we are participating in it weather we acknowledge it or not. If anyone who has not watched an animal being butchered thinks that it is not violent, I urge you to just watch it once. It will change your perspective on those pretty little packages of meat you buy at the grocery store.
respectfully,
lauriellen

--- End quote ---

Hi Lauri,

I think there is a big difference between doing harm to another person and doing harm to an animal. The scriptures make it plain that the animals were given to us for food.

Gen 1:30  Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so.

Genesis 9:1-7
1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

Was it not daily that by the commandments of God the animals were sacrificed [killed] constantly at the alter?

Furthermore, killing and murder are two different things. While murder always involves killing, killing is not always murder. We kill animals, we murder people.

kill·ing
ˈkiliNG/Submit
noun
1. an act of causing death, especially deliberately.

mur·der
ˈmərdər/Submit
noun
1. the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

You saw in Genesis the warning against shedding the blood of another person. Here are more admonishments against murder:

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matthew 15:16-20
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Exo 20:13  Thou shalt not murder.

So then love really is the fulfillment of the law because love does no harm to another PERSON.

Rom 13:9  For the commandments, "You must not commit adultery; you must not murder; you must not steal; you must not covet," and every other commandment are summed up in this statement: "You must love your neighbor as yourself."
Rom 13:10  Love never does anything that is harmful to its neighbor. Therefore, love is the fulfillment of the Law.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets

Strong's -- Neighbor: that is FELLOW (as MAN....).

I think the scriptures are clear on these matters. The biggest stumbling block for most people in the world is simply believing the scriptures. Believing what is right in front of them.

God bless,
Alex

lauriellen:
Alex you precisely made my point. Killing and murder are not the same. I agree it is wrong to murder someone, but I wonder if killing is sometimes justified. Does not God himself kill without sin?

Kat:
lauriellen, yes the world does believe it is okay to 'kill' your enemy, that is the teaching of the old testament and what the whole world lives by.

Lev 26:2  You shall keep My Sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary: I am the LORD.
v. 3  'If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments, and perform them,

Lev 26:7  You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you.


A few chosen people are being taught the truth, that one day all mankind will be saved and all will be sisters and brothers in Christ. Though that isn't until the next age when all people will be taught righteous and how to live together in peace... a few are learning to come out of the ways of this world and be different now. Christ is teaching a few that the new covenant is about the spiritual laws that He gave to His Apostles and on to us. These spiritual laws not only teach us 'not' to kill another person, but that we should 'love' all people even our enemies, and you certainly would not kill those you should love.

Mat 5:43  "You have heard that it was said, 'You must love your neighbor' and hate your enemy.
v. 44  But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,

You need to make the distinction though, that killing an animal is completely different than killing a person. Animals are given for human to have dominion over (Gen 1:26. 28) and consume (Gen 1:30)... certainly slaughter should be done in a humane manner, thought I suppose it usually is not.

And we cannot compare what we as humans do, with what our perfect God does that has given us all life in this world to start with. He actually brings about the ultimate death of all people that live, as He is responsible for all life and death in this creation.

Now if it is confusing as to where to draw the line, Scripture tells us exactly where that line is... you are just making it more confusing by bringing up all kinds of differing scenarios that actually do not apply to this very specific thing of killing another human being.

Rom 12:17  Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.
v. 18  If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
v. 19  Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

The chosen are being prepared now in this age how to live by God's spiritual laws that will be applied to all people in the next age. No matter what life we were living before God opened our eyes, when we learn these truths, we are then to be different and not like the world any longer. We must love others as much as we love ourselves, and you certainly would not want to kill somebody else, any more than you would kill yourself (not if you are living by God's truths anyway). It's a process to learn to put out faith and trust totally in an invisible God, but that is exactly what we have to do and with the Spirit indwelling we can!

Mar 12:28  And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that He answered them well, asked Him, "Which commandment is the most important of all?"
v. 29  Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
v. 30  And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
v. 31  The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page