> General Discussions
Are our thoughts really our thoughts ?
Dave in Tenn:
Rick, I am not agitated by the question. I even tried to answer it. The sovereignty of God (to me, at least) is less a matter of building a theory and 'understanding' as it is to be experienced and lived. This happens when we 'obey' (or at least begin to attempt to obey) in the living of our lives. Where is the simplicity in Christ, where is the freedom in Christ by puzzling over where the thoughts WE HAVE originated?
Does God 'originate' the thought in the mind of a rapist to rape? Does He 'originate' the thought in the mind of a guy with an itchy nose to scratch it?
Hasn't God already formed us to date the way He has formed us? Is He able to change our minds? Is He ever surprised by our thoughts?
Doesn't He will for all men everywhere to 'repent'? Has He simply 'predestined' us, or has He predestined us to good works? Do these include or have anything to do with our 'thoughts'?
In Him WE live and move and have OUR being. He is responsible for everything. Without Him, nothing that has been made was made. We are accountable because WE DO, and WE THINK what we do and think. It's not the "will of God" that we continue to do and think everything we do and think. But it is according to the purpose of God in creating mankind in His image that we go against His will for a season. By doing that, He teaches us what and how to think. And when we are matured, we may discern both good and evil.
rick:
--- Quote from: Kat on January 24, 2016, 12:13:24 AM ---
Hi Rick, yes even our thoughts are caused as all things are, absolutely nothing is free from the sovereignty of God. But God is working in His chosen to get their thinking aligned with His will and ways.
Eph 4:23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Notice what David instructed of Solomon.
1Ch 28:9 "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.
God wants us to love and obey Him from the heart, of course it's caused by God, He's sovereign it can be no other way. But He really wants us to understand/comprehend (by the thoughts of a willing mind) and believe that He is the Almighty God and worthy of our worship and obedience of Him. It's one thing to say you believe, it's quite another to live as though you do, that's what He is accomplishing/causing in us. This is from the 'Myth of "Free Will" Exposed' - Part C.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html ------------------
If it is God, who causes all circumstances which cause all of our thoughts and decisions and acts, then clearly our thoughts and actions are not based on uncaused and non-existent circumstances. Clearly our will is caused and not “free” or “uncaused.”
v
“…Who works [‘operates’] ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11).
“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36).
“And ALL THINGS are of God…” (II Cor. 5:;18).
“…calls those things which be NOT, as though they WERE” (Rom. 4:17).
“Declaring the END from the BEGINNING…” (Isa. 46:10).
“For in Him we LIVE, and MOVE, and have our BEING [Gk: ‘we ARE’—we exist]…” (Acts 17:28).
All energy, all matter, all creation, and all humans are in God. We can only “live and move… IN HIM.” And this is why:
“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself. It is not in man that walks to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23).
No man has a will that can choose contrary to what God already knows will be: “…and calls those things which be not [thoughts and deeds which have not yet been supposedly ‘freely’ thought of] as though they were [as though they already were thought of—how is that ‘freedom’ of the will?]” (Rom. 4:17).
I will repeat this until I am blue in the face, and perchance somebody out there will say, “Ah, yes, now I get it.” Once more: Since God says very plainly that He knows all things and that He knows all things before they happen, how is it then possible that anyone can think a thought which God didn’t know he would have to think? And if God already knows every thought that you must think: how are you free to not think those very foreknown thoughts and those foreknown thoughts only?
If any person in the history of the world can think one thought that God did not foreknow that he would think, then God cannot;
“call those things which be not as though they were.”
“Man’s goings [Heb: ‘steps’] are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?” (Prov. 20:24).
“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.” (Prov. 16:1).
No one can make one statement out of his mouth, unless it was first pre-ordained, foreknown, and approved of, by God!
“The Son of man [Jesus] can do nothing of Himself… without Me [Jesus] ye [all of you—all of mankind] can do nothing” (John 5:19 & 15:5].
v
“Thou [you reading this paper right now…] will say then unto me, ‘WHY DOES He [God] yet find fault' [with the King of Assyria or ANYONE who merely does what God Himself has supernaturally INTENDED for them to do?] For [or ‘because’] who has [EVER] resisted His [GOD’S] WILL [Gk: boulema ‘resolve, intention, or PURPOSE.” This word is never translated “will” and is used but one other time in Acts, translated: ‘purpose.’]”
God tells us that the Assyrian did only what He Himself intended for him to do. Paul, likewise, assures us that no one ever has or can go against God’s “intention or purpose.” How then is God justified in punishing the King of Assyria or anyone else for doing what God “intended” for them to do? The answer lies in the HEART of mankind. God said that He would punish “the fruit of his ARROGANT HEART”
The Bible doesn’t say that man doesn’t have a HEART. It doesn’t say that he doesn’t have a MIND. It doesn’t say that he can’t THINK. It doesn’t say he can’t make CHOICES. It doesn’t say he doesn’t have a WILL. It doesn’t say he can’t carry out his will through his thoughts, choices, planning, action, and deeds. What it does say is that: MAN IS NOT A GOD WHO CAN DO THESE THINGS INDEPENDENTLY AND FREELY FROM THE INTENTIONS AND PURPOSE OF HIS CREATOR!! THAT’S what the Bible really says!
The King of Assyria is being punished because he is claiming to possess FREEDOM OF HIS OWN WILL. He claimed that he came up with the ideas, he made the plans, he carried them out, he reaped the rewards, he took credit for being someone great, etc., etc., when in reality God tells us it was all of Him, and that the king was merely a club in God’s hand.
v
Did the King of Assyria understand in his “obscured” heart that it was God sending him to Jerusalem to do His will? No. Does Christendom understand in their “obscured” hearts that it is God sending them to deceive the world and to blaspheme His name through their evil doctrines? No.
“The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers [rillets—small brooks] of water: He turns [directs] it whithersoever he will [desires]” (Prov. 21:1).
It is not in a king to direct his ways, neither is it in ALL MANKIND to direct his steps:
“O Lord, I know that the way of man [Heb: ‘Adam, a human, mankind] is NOT in himself [or in his presumed free will] it is not IN man [‘not in MANKIND’] that walks to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23).
If mankind cannot direct his own steps: Who then does direct his “steps?”
“Man’s goings [Heb: ‘STEPS’] are OF THE LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?” (Prov. 20:24).
All is OF God.
---------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
I'm coming to the realization that our God controls every aspect of all things, my thoughts, my choices, my life is in His hands.
I feel a certain peace knowing these things and can understand why scripture says work out your faith with fear and trembling because we are not in control of anything.
I'm amazed at the distance God has taken me from believing I had free will, believing in eternal damnation and many other false doctrines.
I see where I was and where I'm at and can trust God to bring me to the finnish line, this fear and trembling to me is not about being lost because I know Christ can and will save all.
That was and is Gods plan , the fear and trembling to me is about when God will get me to the finish line but even still I have peace in that too because all is of God.
It is God who calls,teaches and saves in His time . That I believe and unlike when I was in Christendom , this time my belief is of substance.
Thank you Kat for your patience with me and giving me the answers I need to keep growing in the things of God and not passing judgement on me.
God bless everyone.
Mahonse:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on January 24, 2016, 01:06:15 AM ---
--- Quote from: indianabob on January 23, 2016, 11:06:31 PM ---This type of presentation of our experiences is not getting more helpful, but rather seems more confusing. :o
--- End quote ---
With this statement, I agree. it kinda reminds me of the time I was grappling with this in the beginning. "I want to scratch my nose. If I scratch my nose, does that mean God wants me to scratch my nose? What if I don't scratch my nose? Does that mean God doesn't want me to scratch my nose? Can I avoid scrathing or not scratching mynose if God wants it scratched or not scratched? Oh my! What am I to do?"
I ended that episode by scratching my nose! The earth kept spinning and the stars didn't fall from the sky. My nose felt less itchy, too...at least for a little while. LIVE YOUR LIFE! What else can you do? If you know what is right, DO IT! If you know what is good to think about, THINK IT. If you don't know, don't worry about it. If you know what is wrong, don't do it. If you know what thoughts are wrong, don't think them. THOSE are the times when you will learn about the sovereignty of God.
The question was "are our thoughts really our thoughts". YES! YES, they are!
Are they 'caused'? YES! Yes, they are!
--- End quote ---
Thank you Dave for that deeply encouraging thought. I can now see why Jesus also says to His disciples:
'I still have many things to say to you, but they would be too much for you to bear now.' John 16:12
Just the sheer weight of God's thoughts can be just too much for us mere humans. After all, His thoughts are higher than our thoughts (Isaiah 55:9).
I also remember, when giving a talk on Free Will, Ray saying something along the lines of 'Why am I even up here telling you all this. Just go home and let Him do it.'
Therefore, let us live in the Spirit and put on Self-control (Gal. 5:23)
'For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he' (Pro. 23:7)
Let us therefore take the initiative and 'bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ' (2 Cor. 10:5) and what has He commanded?
'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your strength' Deuteronomy 6:5/Luke 10:27
And
'Love your neighbour as yourself' Leviticus 19:18/Luke 10:27
And
'A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.' John 13:34
And
'This is how we know what love is. Jesus Christ laid down His life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters' 1 John 3:16
'This is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His only Son into the world that we might live through Him.' 1 John 4:9
Therefore, I think God wants us to act, to plan, to be proactive in our thinking, to anticipate, to be aware.
As in the the title of the book by Bob Goff 'Love does.'
Kat:
Hi Rick, I am realizing that a good understanding of no free will is critical to our 'knowing' God. Because He is the Creator of all that there is and He's sovereign over it all... this means absolutely nothing that exist in His creation can operate or function or exist whether it is physical or mental, outside of Him. This all comes back around to the fact that "He is before all things, and in Him all things consist" (Col 1:17) and "for in Him we live and move and have our being" (Act 17:28).
So even though our thoughts are being caused - since everything has causes, but these thoughts we have are developing knowledge in us. Thinking, forming ideas, figuring things out is the way we learn, it makes us the individual we are, gives us perspective. When you come to the point where you truly and completely believe His complete sovereignty over all things and all of us, then you begin to better understand and 'know' God.
Matt 11:27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
I feel little by little He is being revealed to us more and more, I am so glad to be a part of these discussions.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Wittenberg:
Rick, I want to hang out with you really bad. You are consistently asking questions that I ask. How important are these questions? I'm not sure, but the Lord has put them in front of us. Thank you for posting
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