> General Discussions
1 Cor 15:51
Kat:
John 14:12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
And how are the elect to do the works that Christ does, without practice?
1John 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is IN you is greater than he who is in the world.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
When we are joined with Christ at resurrection, one with God - sons of God, then it will be the Father's work that we will also do through Christ. No practice needed God will do it in us just as He does in Christ.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I SAID, "YOU ARE GODS" '?
v. 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
v. 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
v. 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
v. 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
John 17:11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
BTW - Ray spoke in much detail in the Secret Rapture paper about how the elect meet Christ in the air and they return to earth with Him http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm
mercy, peace and love
Kat
zvezda:
--- Quote from: Kat on March 10, 2016, 07:03:11 AM ---
When we are joined with Christ at resurrection, one with God - sons of God, then it will be the Father's work that we will also do through Christ. No practice needed God will do it in us just as He does in Christ.
--- End quote ---
I agree God will do it in us but disagree no practice needed. Judgment begins in the house of God, the elect have been practicing all their lives, they learn and practice righteousness in this age.
I think our root disagreement is that Kat thinks God's wrath and Judgement are the same thing, so when the elect judge the world with Christ, it also means they join in His wrath; while Dave and I think the elect will be saved from the wrath and only need to involve in the judgement.
Kat, the verses (Rev 6:17, Rom 2:5, Job 19:29) you showed in your previous posts are too weak to prove that God's wrath and judgement are the same thing. When analyzing a statement, it helps if we simplify it first -
Rom 2:5 simply says "you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of A and B" - it doesn't necessarily mean A and B are the same day.
Job 19:29 simply says "for wrath brings X, so you know there is a Y" - it doesn't necessarily mean X and Y are the same thing.
Rev 6:17 mentions the day of His wrath only.
You also underlined Rev 6:16 (hide us from the face of His...), I don't think it implies the same thing as Isaiah 26:20.
In Isaiah 26:20, it's the Lord that commands His people to hide; while in Rev 16, it's the kings, rich men, etc that ask the mountains to help them hide.
Lord's command Vs men's request - Big difference.
Didn't Ray always say judgement is correction, not punishment?
His wrath sends punishment and His judgment sends correction. When the elect are going through judgment in their life time, do they think they are going through God's wrath/punishment too?
I guess until there are two witnesses clearly say His wrath/punishment and Judgement are the same thing, we will just agree to disagree.
Kat:
--- Quote from: zvezda on March 10, 2016, 09:13:38 AM ---
I agree God will do it in us but disagree no practice needed. Judgment begins in the house of God, the elect have been practicing all their lives, they learn and practice righteousness in this age.
--- End quote ---
Hi zvezda, yes that is true, we are putting into action obedience to God now, so it is practice for later.
I don't know why you think that the 3 Scripture that puts wrath and judgment together is too weak? Wrath is just a severe form of punishment/correction, needed for those resurrected with a reprobate/diabolical mind, which should be plenty. But there will also be many (and not the elect in the first resurrection) in the resurrection of the dead that will not receive wrath - harsh correction... I've mentioned them before babies and little children, the prophets and patriarchs including John the Baptist that was very dear to Jesus. But anyway I will just bring this I found from Ray.
http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html -----------------------
We learned that "...when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord" (I Cor. 11:32).
Chastening defines how it is that God judges us. Now then, we are about to learn one of the most remarkable spiritual truths in the whole Bible:
"For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world [eon or age]" (Titus 2:11-12).
Here then is the remarkable parallel between God’s judgment and His grace:
God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32) "chasten," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
God "graces" us by "teaching" us! (Titus 2:12) "teaching," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
WOW! Do you even begin to understand what you have just read? Whether God "JUDGES" us (and later the wicked world), or "GRACES" us, He does it THE SAME WAY!!
"Judging" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811), and "gracing" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811). It is the SAME WORD!
"Grace" is not a stagnant feel-good noun -- it is also a verb -- that is, it does something; it accomplishes something; it produces something of great value in the believer.
"Teaching" accomplishes something essential in making man into God’s very image.
The next verse tells us what it "teaches" us: "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts... living soberly, righteously, and godly!" Just the words "living godly" will cover every single thing that God EVER ASKS OF US -- EVERYTHING. "Living GODLY" covers every possible act of faith, love, and obedience that anyone could ever conceive of.
When God uses the SAME WORD to describe something that He wishes to accomplish, it behooves us to study deeply what that word means, especially when that word has to do with the very destiny of all peoples who have ever lived.
The subject of I Cor. 11:32 is JUDGING.
The subject of Titus 2:11 is GRACE AND SALVATION.
HOW does God "judge" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!.
HOW does God's "grace and save" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!
God JUDGES by chastening (I Cor. 11:32), and God GRACES by chastening (Titus 2:11).
By GRACE GOD JUDGES US and by JUDGING GOD GRACES US!
Gracing us by means of chastening, TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation. Judging us by means of chastening, also TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation!
It is high time we dispense with the hypocrisy.
When God JUDGES US THROUGH CHASTENING (I Cor. 11:32) it is for our good and for our benefit and for our salvation. Why then do we think that God changes character when He likewise judges the wicked, unjust, and non-believers at the great white throne? Why? God changes NOT! God is NOT a respecter of persons. You read all of these Scriptures. Do we think the Scriptures LIE?
If you are not rejoicing over these profound and marvelous revelations, then you must be spiritually asleep. I have just shown you one of the most remarkable truths in the entirety of the Bible! You would do well to not read any further until you thoroughly grasp what has been presented here.
And again I ask, "What does this have to do with the lake of fire?" EVERYTHING! I am not going to go into detail on this aspect of judging yet, but suffice it to be said here that the "judging" (Greek: krino in I Cor. 11:32 by chastening that brings godly living and salvation is also the very same "judging" (Greek: krino) used in Revelation 20:12 with reference to the lake of fire.
Seriously, do many believe that these God-inspired Greek words have one meaning when applied to God judging and gracing believers now, but then have a totally different meaning when applied to as yet non-believers in the day of judging? Do you? Well, regrettably, many do think that God is fickle, inconsistent, and a respecter of persons. Can you for once in your life begin to use your God-given mind to think for yourself?
This is an absolutely marvelous teaching. God "judges" us by "chastening "(paideuo) us, which means, teaching, training, learning, disciplining, punishing, instructing, and educating. And God "graces" us also by this same "chastening" (paideuo) which does not change meaning from one Scripture verse to another. Notice how other translations render this word paideuo in Titus 2:11-12:
"Teaching us..." King James
"Instructing us..." American Standard Version
"Disciplining us... New Testament (Henry Alford)
"And schooling us..." The Centenary Translation (Montgomery)
"Training us..." The New Testament in Modern Speech (Weymouth)
Now it is true that the Greek word paideuo #3811 can also mean "punishment." But punishment is not the main force of this word. Notice that none of the above translations (nor any that I know of) translate this word, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, PUNISHING us that denying ungodliness ..." No, the force of this word is to DISCIPLINE, TRAIN, INSTRUCT, SCHOOL AND TEACH.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
zvezda:
--- Quote from: Kat on March 10, 2016, 09:46:23 AM ---
I don't know why you think that the 3 Scripture that says that put wrath and judgment together is too weak?
--- End quote ---
I have simplified the 3 scriptures, you just need to substitute those A/B/X/Y with whatever you like to help you understand the logic behind and why it's weak. I will give some examples -
you are storing up food for your family in the day of tornado and earthquake - it doesn't necessarily mean tornado and earthquake will happen on the same day.
for seat belt brings safety, so you know there is a law. - obviously seat belt safety and law are not the same thing, it's just cause and effect, cause always happens before effect.
--- Quote from: Kat on March 10, 2016, 09:46:23 AM ---But there will also be many (and not the elect in the first resurrection) in the resurrection of the dead that will not receive wrath - harsh correction. I've mentioned them before babies and little children, the prophets and patriarchs including John the Baptist that was very dear to Jesus.
--- End quote ---
True. I guess we need to go back to what Dave suggested about the timeline:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on March 09, 2016, 10:27:45 PM ---Where are the elect in this "timeline"? Maybe here?
Rev_11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
--- End quote ---
All these things will not happen at the same time, right?
His wrath comes before the time of the dead, so the babies won't receive wrath, and then the time of the dead comes before judgement.
If you agree with this timeline, then it's obviously that His wrath won't happen at the same time as judgement.
Joel:
Here are a few scriptures to consider;
John11:24-Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25-Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26-And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believeth thou this?
Colossians 3:1-If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2-Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3-For ye are dead, and your life is hide with Christ in God.
4-When Christ who is our life shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Joel
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