> General Discussions
1 Cor 15:51
Kat:
--- Quote from: zvezda on March 10, 2016, 10:50:56 AM ---
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on March 09, 2016, 10:27:45 PM ---Where are the elect in this "timeline"? Maybe here?
Rev_11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
--- End quote ---
All these things will not happen at the same time, right?
His wrath comes before the time of the dead, so the babies won't receive wrath, and then the time of the dead comes before judgement.
If you agree with this timeline, then it's obviously that His wrath won't happen at the same time as judgement.
--- End quote ---
The timeline that we have in the Scripture is this.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished (spurious). This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
There is the first resurrection of the elect and then the great white throne with the dead small and great raised to be judged... we do not know what order there might be for them.
--- Quote ---His wrath comes before the time of the dead, so the babies won't receive wrath, and then the time of the dead comes before judgement.
--- End quote ---
This comment just does not make sense to me, His wrath being before the resurrection of the dead? What about the Pharisees? Look we are just going in circles with this, let's just leave it at this, unless you find Scripture that makes your point.
p.s. Thanks Joel.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
zvezda:
--- Quote from: Kat on March 10, 2016, 12:29:59 PM ---This comment just does not make sense to me, His wrath being before the resurrection of the dead? What about the Pharisees? Look we are just going in circles with this, let's just leave it at this, unless you find Scripture that makes your point.
--- End quote ---
I already given you the scripture, that's Rev 11:18. It lists out each event one by one.
Kat:
Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."
I do not see this as a sequence of events, one after the other, if it were there would at least be 'and then,' but the "and" just shows the different things that are to happen at that time.
Anyway as you have said, we will just agree to disagree on this for now.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Dave in Tenn:
I just want to point out for the readers that nowhere in the last quote from Ray does he mention "wrath". Elsewhere he drew a distinct line of separation between WRATH/INDIGNATION and REBUKE/CHASTENING. Let's not be guilty of equating the two.
I certainly agree that Chastening can be light to severe. But I don't think that Ray taught that "severe chastening"=wrath. Instead, he went to great pains to disassociate the two. I may be wrong about that, but I'll have to be shown.
I'm reminded of Ray's "parable" about the young African girl in one of the letters to Hagee or Kennedy that started this website. Her "correction", Ray intimated, will be light. Part of her correction will be the presentation of the truth of the Love of God, and His wisdom in all His working. Ray may not have said that in that way then, but I do believe it, and that he did too.
To me, "escaping wrath" or "being saved from wrath" applies to the elect. What is it about "the chosen" that "entitles" them to salvation from "Wrath"? Because they have come out of Her. That's the way to escape--not judgement, not correction, not chastening--not even scourging--but wrath. Isn't "wrath" reserved for the Great Whore, the Kings that ride her, and the peoples drunk on "the wine of her fornication"? That's been my understanding for eight years. Again, if that is not what Ray taught, I'll have to be shown. That's not the world at large. That's the "many called" from which we have been drawn. Even here, "wrath" may be light, moderate or heavy in the way it is experienced. Regardless, my enemies are not flesh and blood. I don't think the rules will change then either.
Dave in Tenn:
Just so Kat doesn't think she's typing to a brick wall, I have seen one thing more clearly in the study that sprung out of this discussion. I no longer think the "world" will be universally and immediately "happy" to see His coming in Glory. That may well be reserved for those who believe and do. They may well be "angry", but soon enough their anger will turn towards the Great Whore.
Surely they will be "happy" eventually. I guess I'll have to live a little longer to understand this.
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