> General Discussions
Was Adam considered fully man before he sinned?
Kat:
These comments about being male and female made me think... everything that is created is for a distinct purpose and humans were created in the image of God, male and female, so it does have something to do with what God Himself is revealing in us.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
The question is why did God make mankind with two genders? 'I think' that this is the basic plan, that in creating the two different genders, with their own diverse ways of thinking and acting, we have both parts that represent the whole or complete being, which is God and this is demonstrated out in marriage.
Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
To me in an ideal marriage, it is combining the two different parts/genders, that when combined and are working together in harmony make a whole unity. God already possesses all these qualities within Himself, He is complete and perfect and therefore understands every aspect of both male and female.
1Cor 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
But of course that is just the basic concept, there is much more to the intricate relationships in this world. For one thing God designed the structure of authority/rule for human society with the man created first and placed first in authority over the woman. I do not believe this is meant to demean a woman, it's just the roles we are given and the way we carry it out develops our character for good or bad. God also revealed how this distinction in gender is incorporated throughout our lives with the Israelites and how it plays out in their society and religious customs.
Because this is the structure of authority that God has placed in this world, I believe this is why God is always referred to in the masculine, in all OT references He is a man and He came to earth as a man, that is what was required for Him to fulfill His mission. God has designated the man to be an authority figure in the world for many reasons and God uses the male gender to identify Himself to the world as an authority figure as well.
Num 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent...
In that particular Scripture it says "God is not a man" and it continues to say in what way He is not like a man "that He should lie." The first part cannot be taken without the next part to get a proper understanding of it.
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
But this is just my pondering, maybe it'll gives us something to think about.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
John from Kentucky:
To make this discussion more interesting, Ray wrote somewhere that for a long time he knew that the word "image" in Genesis in the Hebrew language actually means image or form in the literal sense as in English. It is not just a metaphor or symbol.
I checked Ray out on that point and agree with him.
It is not that mankind thinks of God in human form. God made us in the God form. We are His kinfolk. His children. Thus we look like our Father. We are made after the God kind of life. Not angels. We will be at the top of the life chain. It is quite a magnificent thing that God is doing with us. We were special enough that He died for us.
The study of God is endlessly fascinating. Nothing else comes close. What fun!
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: largeli on June 03, 2016, 06:17:18 PM ---Scripture says that Gods image is male and female. Is His image Him anymore than my image is me? Doesn't Numbers 23 says God is not a man?
Saying God is both male and female or that Adam was male and also female (trapped in a male body)... Hmm.
--- End quote ---
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John 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
v. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."
I do want you to know that I realize that Christ is not the Father, and the voice that spoke at the baptism of Christ was not His (Jesus') own voice saying those things, it was "a voice," as you have stated before, of an angel/messenger.
The other part of John 5 also says "you have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape." Yet Christ seems to be stating that the disciples did see the Father when they see Him.
COMMENT: He not only "seems to be stating," He literally IS stating. But if the Father is invisible spirit, how can He be seen through visible humanity?
Are we to believe that somehow the Father looks like a man? And doesn't the Bible say that "God is NOT a man?" Actually, it doesn't. We are yet allowing the theology of Christendom to influence our thinking. I have used Numbers 23:19 myself in the past as a verse that shows that "God is not a man." But that is not really what this verse or I Sam. 15:29 are saying at all. There is no period (.) after the word "man" in either verse.
When one sees a comma or a semi-colon, it means that there is more to follow, and often brings out a totally different textual meaning than is meant by presenting only fragments of a sentence. The same is true with teaching that God never changes. What proof do we have for this? Why Mal. 3:6, right? Wrong! Read it: "For I am the LORD, [comma] I change NOT; [semi-colon--ah, there's more to follow that shows in what WAYS God does not change]..." More on all these things later in my study. [/b]
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Are there any scriptures that would indicate this word image could carry more than just spiritual metaphorical meaning? Yes I think there are.
Consider genesis 9:6 which states that humanity was made, past tense, in the image of God. But surely this blood shedding carnal humanity could not refer to God's spiritual image and character, could it?
Gen 9:6 The shedder of the blood of a human, by a human his blood shall be shed, for in the image of the Elohim has He made humanity.
A new testament proof of this idea is found in Paul's usage of man's image. Referring to a generic man which includes carnal God hating humanity paul says;
1Co_11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
Not even we who have God's spirit are yet in His complete spiritual image (As its a process) and yet paul could still call a generic man the image AND glory of God. How is that possible?
Does God have a form? An image that man was made after back in Genesis as ray pointed out?
Who is the Lord Jesus if not God's image and form?
1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, THE MAN Christ Jesus;
Php 2:5 Have the same attitude among yourselves that was also in the Messiah Jesus:
Php 2:6 In God's own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping.
2Co_4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Col 1:15 Who [Jesus] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature
And we know Jesus is God:
1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
John 20
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Just adding my thoughts to a very very interesting topic!
God bless,
Alex
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 03, 2016, 08:34:22 PM ---To make this discussion more interesting, Ray wrote somewhere that for a long time he knew that the word "image" in Genesis in the Hebrew language actually means image or form in the literal sense as in English. It is not just a metaphor or symbol.
I checked Ray out on that point and agree with him.
It is not that mankind thinks of God in human form. God made us in the God form. We are His kinfolk. His children. Thus we look like our Father. We are made after the God kind of life. Not angels. We will be at the top of the life chain. It is quite a magnificent thing that God is doing with us. We were special enough that He died for us.
The study of God is endlessly fascinating. Nothing else comes close. What fun!
--- End quote ---
Agreed. Here is your reference John!
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Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
COMMENT: Yes He is. But think about this: As Jesus is the image of His Father, His Father MUST HAVE AN IMAGE. Not only is Jesus the image of the invisible God, but He made humanity likewise: "Let Us make man [Heb: 'humanity'] IN OUR IMAGE" (Gen. 1:26). I have known for thirty years that the Hebrew word for "image" always means "form, image, and shape," and never means "spiritual or moral character." So how can humanity be made in God's "image" if He doesn't have an image?
So I am wondering if the simple statement of fact "I and My Father are one" says it all?
COMMENT: Maybe not quit all, but pretty close once we understand all the facts and contexts of that statement.
Is the bond of oneness between the Father and Son such a perfect oneness of mind, that to hear or see Christ is to see or hear the Father, in essence anyway?
COMMENT: Yes, of course (I would leave off the phrase "in essence anyway").
So I'm wondering about the statement in Kings "Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You," isn't this the Father?
COMMENT: I Kings 8:27 does say "God--Elohim" in verse 27, And we know that it is the "LORD--Jehovah" which Moses saw at Siani, therefore this is Jesus and not the Father. Besides, Deut. 10:14 states that the "heaven of heavens" are the "LORD'S thy God," and so again, that is Jesus.
Maybe He can't be brought down into a "shape" or a being,
COMMENT: But then again, maybe HE CAN!
indianabob:
Whether we are made in the physical "image" of god rather than just the spiritual image, a process to be consummated at our change to glory, I've always looked at it as we are beings with the ability to communicate with one another and with God. WE know that we are alive and we know that we shall all die and we discuss that knowledge and wonder about it among ourselves and often with God in prayer.
God can create anything God desires to exist and yet he chose to create the masses of human kind by sexual reproduction wherein the humans as mother and father have a part in the creation of new life. On the other hand all the other animal types follow instinct and are unaware mentally or emotionally of a participation in a process leading to a beneficial result that is according to God's great plan for expanding the God family.
I don't see that God has to be either/both male or female as a pattern for the creation of sexual "gender" in human kind. God could be neuter and still invent/create this method of expanding human populations, making it practical and exciting and fun all at the same time. Sexual reproduction is obviously God's desire for the better way to bring billions of thinking beings into HIS family. As the source of the design of males and females God certainly gave us individual attributes that contribute to a good final result, e.g. becoming "one flesh", but stating that God is both male and female could lead to confusion in the minds of those who are not able to make a detailed study of languages used in scripture. e.g. anthropomorphism... Perhaps it is better to just understand that God's love is expressed in two separate ways, one in the female and one in the male, but all joining together to express God's will for how we relate, being from the same mind of God provided for us to emulate.
Kindly offered, indiana bob
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