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Was Adam considered fully man before he sinned?
Dennis Vogel:
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
"image" H6754
צֶלֶם
tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.
I like "to shade" because it implies the "shadow" of things to come (IMO).
Study the rest of the words in blue. What do you think "vain shew" means? phantom, illusion?
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
If something is "invisible" it cannot have a physical image.
"Image" in these contexts does not mean anything physical.
Dennis Vogel:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 03, 2016, 08:34:22 PM ---To make this discussion more interesting, Ray wrote somewhere that for a long time he knew that the word "image" in Genesis in the Hebrew language actually means image or form in the literal sense as in English. It is not just a metaphor or symbol.
I checked Ray out on that point and agree with him.
--- End quote ---
A few days ago I heard Ray say the opposite - If I find it again I'll post a link here.
Dennis Vogel:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Why would Jesus have to be made in the likeness of men if men were already in the image of God?
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on June 04, 2016, 12:11:07 PM ---Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
"image" H6754
צֶלֶם
tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.
I like "to shade" because it implies the "shadow" of things to come (IMO).
Study the rest of the words in blue. What do you think "vain shew" means? phantom, illusion?
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
If something is "invisible" it cannot have a physical image.
"Image" in these contexts does not mean anything physical.
--- End quote ---
Hi Dennis,
Perhaps what ray meant was the passages in which the word is used and not just what Dr. Strong's assigned the word to mean?
Why not look at the 17 times the word is used in the old testament? Perhaps the usage of the word could be more helpful to us.
I got these with a quick search in esword for the word, here are all the uses.
Gen_1:26 And GodH430 said,H559 Let us makeH6213 manH120 in our image,H6754 after our likeness:H1823 and let them have dominionH7287 over the fishH1710 of the sea,H3220 and over the fowlH5775 of the air,H8064 and over the cattle,H929 and over allH3605 the earth,H776 and over everyH3605 creeping thingH7431 that creepethH7430 uponH5921 the earth.H776
Gen_1:27 So GodH430 createdH1254 (H853) manH120 in his own image,H6754 in the imageH6754 of GodH430 createdH1254 he him; maleH2145 and femaleH5347 createdH1254 he them.
Gen_5:3 And AdamH121 livedH2421 an hundredH3967 and thirtyH7970 years,H8141 and begatH3205 a son in his own likeness,H1823 after his image;H6754 and calledH7121 (H853) his nameH8034 Seth:H8352
Gen_9:6 Whoso sheddethH8210 man'sH120 blood,H1818 by manH120 shall his bloodH1818 be shed:H8210 forH3588 in the imageH6754 of GodH430 madeH6213 he(H853) man.H120
Num_33:52 Then ye shall drive outH3423 (H853) allH3605 the inhabitantsH3427 of the landH776 from beforeH4480 H6440 you, and destroyH6 (H853) allH3605 their pictures,H4906 and destroyH6 allH3605 their moltenH4541 images,H6754 and quite pluck downH8045 allH3605 their high places:H1116
1Sa_6:5 Wherefore ye shall makeH6213 imagesH6754 of your emerods,H6076 and imagesH6754 of your miceH5909 that marH7843 (H853) the land;H776 and ye shall giveH5414 gloryH3519 unto the GodH430 of Israel:H3478 peradventureH194 he will lightenH7043 (H853) his handH3027 from offH4480 H5921 you, and from offH4480 H5921 your gods,H430 and from offH4480 H5921 your land.H776
1Sa_6:11 And they laidH7760 (H853) the arkH727 of the LORDH3068 uponH413 the cart,H5699 and the cofferH712 withH854 the miceH5909 of goldH2091 and the imagesH6754 of their emerods.H2914
2Ki_11:18 And allH3605 the peopleH5971 of the landH776 wentH935 into the houseH1004 of Baal,H1168 and brake it down;H5422 his altarsH4196 and his imagesH6754 brake they in piecesH7665 thoroughly,H3190 and slewH2026 (H853) MattanH4977 the priestH3548 of BaalH1168 beforeH6440 the altars.H4196 And the priestH3548 appointedH7760 officersH6486 overH5921 the houseH1004 of the LORD.H3068
2Ch_23:17 Then allH3605 the peopleH5971 went toH935 the houseH1004 of Baal,H1168 and brake it down,H5422 and brake his altarsH4196 and his imagesH6754 in pieces,H7665 and slewH2026 MattanH4977 the priestH3548 of BaalH1168 beforeH6440 the altars.H4196
Psa_39:6 SurelyH389 every manH376 walkethH1980 in a vain shew:H6754 surelyH389 they are disquietedH1993 in vain:H1892 he heapeth upH6651 riches, and knowethH3045 notH3808 whoH4310 shall gatherH622 them.
Psa_73:20 As a dreamH2472 when one awaketh;H4480 H6974 so, O Lord,H136 when thou awakest,H5782 thou shalt despiseH959 their image.H6754
Eze_7:20 As for the beautyH6643 of his ornament,H5716 he setH7760 it in majesty:H1347 but they madeH6213 the imagesH6754 of their abominationsH8441 and of their detestable thingsH8251 therein: thereforeH5921 H3651 have I setH5414 it farH5079 from them.
Eze_16:17 Thou hast also takenH3947 thy fairH8597 jewelsH3627 of my goldH4480 H2091 and of my silver,H4480 H3701 whichH834 I had givenH5414 thee, and madestH6213 to thyself imagesH6754 of men,H2145 and didst commit whoredomH2181 with them,
Eze_23:14 And that she increasedH3254 H413 her whoredoms:H8457 for when she sa wH7200 menH376 pourtrayedH2707 uponH5921 the wall,H7023 the imagesH6754 of the ChaldeansH3778 pourtrayedH2710 with vermilion,H8350
Amo_5:26 But ye have borneH5375 (H853) the tabernacleH5522 of your MolochH4432 and ChiunH3594 your images,H6754 the starH3556 of your god,H430 whichH834 ye madeH6213 to yourselves.
The word is used of God's image, man's image, molten images, images of things worshipped, images of men and mice. It does not seem to ever mean a mental representation, or of spiritual qualities, or shadow, or phantom, etc... but that's just what I can see. So couldn't this indeed have more of a literal sense than spiritual?
Doesn't Jesus being the image of the invisible prove the invisible can be given form? We know God is spirit and that Jesus is God. Yet Jesus has form and appears as man. Is this not giving form, shape, image, to the invisible God?
Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwelleth all the FULNESS of the deity BODILY.
John says He will appear and we will see Him as He is. What does it mean to 'appear?'
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
God bless,
Alex
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on June 04, 2016, 01:19:05 PM ---Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Why would Jesus have to be made in the likeness of men if men were already in the image of God?
--- End quote ---
I've considered this verse myself as well. It has been demonstrated correctly here on the forums by the scriptures that every time God appeared in the old testament or was seen of the prophets it was in the form of a man (perhaps minus the burning bush). When Moses saw God's backparts, it was that of a man's. When Isaiah saw the throne of God, there was the likeness of a man above it. Abraham witnessed three men of which one of them was Jehovah. Daniel saw one like a son of man in his vision. So God has possessed this form since before Jesus was born of Mary.
We know no verse is becoming its own interpretation so then is it not possible that this reference of coming into the 'form of a slave' and 'likeness of man' means being emptied of immortality and becoming subject to hunger, physical fatigue, the need to use the bathroom, etc...? I would say it has nothing to do with taking on the form of God which mankind is created after and much more with being made flesh and subject to death.
God bless,
Alex
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