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Obey Those in Authority
cheekie3:
Arion -
--- Quote from: Arion on June 13, 2016, 11:00:42 AM ---We are to obey legitimate authority over us not illegitimate authority and that is the crux. Question. Where in the scripture does it command us to obey illegitimate or illegal authority? For example a wife is to submit herself to the authority of her husband. She is under no compulsion to submit herself to the authority of another woman's husband. Or, Satan will attempt to exert illegitimate authority over the believer and we know we are not to submit to him. There is much illegitimate authority posing as true authority.
Another example. In the U.S. our system is not set up to be a theocracy, a monarchy, police state, dictatorship or even a democracy. We are set up to be a constitutional republic....not a straight democracy. So what is considered legitimate authority in our system? Under our system our rulers receive limited powers received upon oath to fealty to the U.S. constitution. Any ruler who issues edicts that go against that constitution are [the edicts or laws] automatically null and void under our system. Of course who among the leaders of our nation obeys and keeps their oath to that constitution? Few. Very few. They pretty much all do whatever they want to do. Many might say that the way the U.S. was founded was wrong because the settlers rebelled against King George. But, King George was the King of England. Did his legitimate authority [under God] really extend across the ocean to the new world? He surely thought that it did.
Now to be sure if you take a stand and protest illegitimate authority and stand for what is right that will not protect you or I from the penalties that the 'authorities' are going to extract from you be it civil or criminal. For myself with the time I spent as a officer in the U.S. Army in my former life I learned a lot about the constitution and contrasting legitimate vs illegitimate authority. A officer can go against illegal and unconstitutional orders and do what is right but will probably pay a penalty for bucking his orders. The Nazi's during WWII used the excuse that they were following orders and obeying the laws of their land and thereby attempted to absolve themselves from their crimes. It didn't work for them in the end.
So to wrap it all up obeying civil authority isn't as cut and dry as one might think it to be. On one hand we are not to be a law unto ourselves with everyone 'doing what is right in his own eyes' but on the other hand we are not under compunction to obey the various diktats of any officials or luminaries that decide to discard their limited powers under our constitution and take to themselves authority that they don't legitimately possess. Not as cut and dried as it may appear at first glance. Know what is right and do what is right but know that in doing so you may indeed pay a penalty as true and legitimate authority in this country [knowing that we have members here from many countries and systems of law] is getting as rare as hens teeth.
--- End quote ---
Thank you for your post; your points are all valid.
I know digging for The Truth is not an easy task; and it costs us severely in living in His Truth.
These are the issues I am still researching The Scriptures on:
1. What are legitimate authorities if we are to be of the world but not of the world.
2. I do not believe that The Scriptures ask us to obey any in any authority - as we are commanded not to lord it over others as those in authority do, but to SERVE. There is a significant difference between SERVING and being obedient to authority. We are to Serve Him.
3. Satan is the legitimate authority of this world - but we are not of this world.
4. My understanding of any lawful government, is that the government is beneath the people, and the sole purpose of any government is to serve and protect its people - but unfortunately, most governments in the world today act and behave as if they are above the people, and therefore go beyond their governmental jurisdictions, treating the people as if they were infants that cannot manage their own affairs. He has His Own Government, it is the Called Out Called Out Ones, also known as His (True) Church.
5. We are not to blindly follow any orders, as we are to test every spirit, in order to ascertain whether it be of Our heavenly Father or otherwise. We are not to judge the world, as it has nothing to do with us - and He will judge the world in His Time of His Choosing.
6. We are to obey HIM at all times - as He says 'why do you say you love me and do not do what I say'. I cannot see how we can both obey His Commandments and obey those in authority at the same time. We have only One Master - Him.
7. We are not part of Satan's kingdom; and as He has conquered this world and He lives in us by His Spirit - the devil should have absolutely no jurisdiction over us - as Our Head is Christ and Satan is not equal to, or above Christ.
Kind Regards.
George.
Kat:
--- Quote from: cheekie3 on June 10, 2016, 10:42:37 AM ---
I do know that what we are all asked to obey in the world, is always subtle, and difficult to get to the root cause - and if one proves the root cause, and it is contrary to His Word, how can one obey that which His Word instructs us not to obey (i.e. should a member of His Elect who is working in a hospital, where abortions are carried out, obey those in authority over them without question and be party to the abortion).
Does His Word really teach us to obey those in authority in this world, while at the same time ordering us to come out of her (Babylon the great) and not be party to her sins.
How can we come out of her (Babylon the great) and be in the world but not of the world, and still obey those in authority in the world (especially as the Elect should not be in Satan's kingdom).
(Still enquiring) George.
--- End quote ---
Hi George, it seems to me you are taking a general statement that Paul made and making very specific arguments against it. Paul was saying what the law was meant to be, not what corrupt people have turned it into. I believe laws are generally to keep the public at peace, so the higher ups can live in peace... but of course there is much corruption in every level of government, as in every aspect of society.
--- Quote ---My only point of poor understanding is why or how Paul of all people could write that rulers are not a terror to good but to evil. I just don't see that being true.
--- End quote ---
I think Paul was teaching that believers should live in peace with the rulers/authorities of the land... as in we cannot rebel against the laws they have put in place. Paul is not trying to say the governments of this world are necessarily good, no, though he is saying most laws are generally designed to keep peace. Certainly there are those that abuse their authority, but that is not what Paul is focusing on.
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject(G5293) to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
v. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
G5293
hupotassō - to subordinate; reflexively to obey: - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.
If anything, believers are to be peacemakers and are to "lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence" (Tim 2:2) and are never to "repay no one evil for evil" (Rom 12:17), as in rebellion against the authorities "appointed by God."
Heb 12:14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
Matt 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.
We/believers cannot upsurge the powers that be or pick and choose which laws we will obey, because showing dissidence could lead to being arrested. I think Paul is warning us about being self-righteous against the rulers/authorities to the point of bringing on our own persecution/suffering.
1Peter 2:12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.
--- Quote ---We are to resist the devil - yet Satan is the ruler of this world (and in authority over the rulers of darkness and wickedness), which include mankind in authority as kings and in government.
--- End quote ---
Satan is only in power under God's sovereignty, it is God who has determined how this society will be and it is God who puts the circumstances in each and every one of our lives. Yes sometimes people suffer even when trying to do the right thing, that is part of the evil experience we will endure in this world. But we can always make things worse by the way we respond, we are now to be the meek of the world.
Titus 3:1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work,
v. 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility (meekness) to all men.
1Peter 3:11 You must turn away from evil and do good; you must strive for peace with all your heart.
v. 12 For the Lord watches over the righteous and listens to their prayers; but he opposes those who do evil."
v. 13 Who will harm you if you are eager to do what is good?
v. 14 But even if you should suffer for doing what is right, how happy you are! Do not be afraid of anyone, and do not worry. (GNB)
As far as working where you are expected to do things that go against your conscious... then I would say that is not a good place for you to work. Surely you don't think it would be better to go against the establishment rather than change jobs? You/we cannot change what this world is, but we need to learn how or where we can live in this world and be at peace.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
Kat,
Amen! Amen! Amen!
You summed up exactly what I was thinking.
I am in total agreement with you.
God bless,
Alex
Dave in Tenn:
I strongly agree with what Kat wrote, too. Especially the bit about self-righteousness.
Here's Paul on the matter, mentioning both the "world" and "us":
2Co 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.
(CLV) For our boasting is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and sincerity of God, not in fleshly wisdom, but in the grace of God, we behaved ourselves in the world, yet more superabundantly toward you."
Ain't gonna let the old preacher that lives in my head "interpret" or explain that to me any more.
What did Jesus do, and how did that turn out?
I guess I might think differently, right or wrong, but I don't "expect" the world at large to follow the instruction of the Apostles. I don't even "expect" any more the greater Church to obey the Sermon on the Mount! He has placed us in the midst of a crooked and perverse Generation. HIS was, (and in measurable ways, WORSE), and every generation since has been. This is the way He works. Many are called (out of the world). Few are chosen (out of the many called). As Ray said, the world may not have gotten worse, but the Church has.
To be in the world, and not OF it means, to me (in part, at least):
Do good. So far, there still isn't a law against the Fruit of the Spirit. The only resistance I might expect in the world would be from religion or (to a lesser extent) ideology. Maybe a few bad actors too.
Though we understand well (at least better now) that it is God working in us to both will and do His good pleasure, we still can't ignore that we are to WORK OUT our own salvation, with fear and trembling, knowing that.
cheekie3:
Kat / Alex / Dave in Tenn -
Thank you for your posts; and your valuable insight.
I did not want to post this response; but I sensed I needed to do so. So here goes:
I have responded to similar responses at least three times on this topic - and it appears that you do not understand what I am researching The Scriptures on, and why.
I see no point in repeating what I have previously clarified.
He knows my heart and my intentions.
I will, as always, Trust Him.
I will continue to judge myself on all aspects, as He commands us all to do so.
For your information, I have since I started this post, confirmed from The Scriptures that 'some obeyed Paul' - so I deduce from this - that Scriptural references definitely refer to those in authority in His True Church, as Overseers or Elders in His True Church (i.e. John, James, Jude, Paul, Peter, etc). Ascertaining as to who these may be today however, is much more difficult, if not impossible - yet it should be possible by His Holy Spirit, for all of His Elect today, to be aware of all those in authority over them, under Christ, and in Christ.
I personally think, that perhaps, we should all focus on His Commandment 'not to love the world; and the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life' as this is how Satan rules those under his authority - by his acts of lying, deceiving and murder.
I always seek to know the root cause of all things - like, why are the politicians doing or saying that - what is their real aim - as I do not believe we can understand fully anything without knowing its root cause.
If we are all to have the Mind of Christ - we should all be like Minded.
My heart's desire is very simply, it is to please Him in all that I desire, think, say and do.
However, in the days that we live in (which I believe are the last days - although none of us know how long these last days will last), He has pre informed us that 'knowledge will abound'.
Is there any doubt, that today, we should have more knowledge of His Truth; as He has declared that He will reveal more, more, more, in the last days.
Paul was given His knowledge directly by Jesus Christ Himself through His Holy Spirit; and Paul did not seek any help from His Apostles - and only after many, many years, when Paul met Peter and the other Elders, did He confirm that what Paul was told was the same as that received supernaturally by Peter and the other Elders. Paul studied The Scriptures and interpreted them wrongly, until His eyes were opened by Jesus Christ who gave give True Knowledge - and those Saul persecuted were dumbfounded that Paul know taught The Way (of Christ) - yet they must have known it is only possible if God gave Paul these revelations.
I often wonder why we do not all, personally, get more direct revelation from Him that is confirmed by His Scriptural witnesses.
Sometimes I feel like Job, whose self proclaimed three (3) friends accused him of all sorts of things, wrongly on all counts - and He sent a young man to reprimand his so called friends who spoke not wisdom, but foolishness without any true knowledge of God.
Perhaps, this is one of those topics, that Peter wrote about regarding some of Paul's Epistles (letters); in that, some things, are very hard to understand.
I obey His Commandment not to quit; and continue to ask Him to reveal His Truths as He said He would, knock on His Door (Jesus Christ), and continue seeking His Truths at all times.
Ray said of Himself, many, many, times, that he was like a bulldog - asking God to show him what he was looking for - and Ray did not give up until God gave him what he was looking for.
Kind Regards.
George.
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