> General Discussions
Fear
cheekie3:
Porter -
Thank you for pointing all this out:
--- Quote from: Porter on December 08, 2016, 06:23:23 AM ---
--- Quote from: cheekie3 on December 08, 2016, 03:59:07 AM ---Pamela -
It is very encouraging when the seeds of His Words are planted, and over time, start to bear fruit:
--- Quote from: Musterseed on December 07, 2016, 10:48:34 PM ---Hello Porter and Rhys
Its heartbreaking I know. My husbands cousins are all messed up from believing that vile teaching.
But when we visited them this summer I noticed they weren't going to church much anymore and were talking about how they were tricked by the Catholic Church. I told them of Issah 45 and
That hell is a lie. My friend Mary was so relieved because her fifteen year old son committed suiside
And she believed he was in purgatory waiting to be judged. Anyway they were attentive and Mary has since become an advocate for suiside prevention. That's Gods Mercy right there. And our other friend has come out of her altogether and said" why should I have to confess to a priest when I can go straight to Jesus" how wonderful is the Lord. There is so much Hope in The Lord, I see changes every day. Yes it was fear that brought Paul to his knees and fear that brought me to my knees. I think it will be fear that brings the world to its knees. I really want to see the looks on those hypocrites faces when they see Jesus and then I would like to help them, for they need it the most.
God be with you. Pamela
--- End quote ---
All -
I just want to focus on the distinction between 'fear' and 'The Fear of The Lord'.
Unless I have got this completely wrong about Saul of Tarsus, it was not 'fear' that stopped him in His Tracks, it was The One he was persecuting (Jesus Christ Himself). Saul thought that he was righteous and was doing God's work, and I do not see that Saul was 'fearful' in what he was doing - as he was probably pleased with himself for 'doing his own good works'. If anything, Saul knew that it was God Himself who struck him down, and He identified Himself as Jesus (who Saul was persecuting).
Therefore, the only possible fear Saul could have had, as I see it, is that, Saul may have thought something like 'I thought I was serving God, when in fact I was fighting against Him and His Followers' - and yes, I am merely speculating here.
So, if Saul was in any kind of fear when Jesus struck him down, it could not be the 'fear that we are warned has torment' - it can perhaps, be, 'The Fear of The Lord' - as 'The Fear of The Lord' is both 'The Beginning of Knowledge', and also, 'The Beginning of Wisdom'.
When Saul was Named Paul by Jesus Christ, Paul certainly was given By Him an abundance of 'Knowledge' and 'Wisdom', which we all cherish as 'Gems of His Truths', and 'The deep Things of Almighty God'.
I do not see Saul was in fear - like some may be - of say, going to hell; as Saul thought he was 'righteous in doing God's work'.
To me, Saul was struck down by Jesus Christ - and Saul most certainly knew 'The Fear of The Lord'.
Warmest Regards.
George
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: cheekie3 on December 08, 2016, 03:59:07 AM ---Pamela -
It is very encouraging when the seeds of His Words are planted, and over time, start to bear fruit:
--- Quote from: Musterseed on December 07, 2016, 10:48:34 PM ---Hello Porter and Rhys
Its heartbreaking I know. My husbands cousins are all messed up from believing that vile teaching.
But when we visited them this summer I noticed they weren't going to church much anymore and were talking about how they were tricked by the Catholic Church. I told them of Issah 45 and
That hell is a lie. My friend Mary was so relieved because her fifteen year old son committed suiside
And she believed he was in purgatory waiting to be judged. Anyway they were attentive and Mary has since become an advocate for suiside prevention. That's Gods Mercy right there. And our other friend has come out of her altogether and said" why should I have to confess to a priest when I can go straight to Jesus" how wonderful is the Lord. There is so much Hope in The Lord, I see changes every day. Yes it was fear that brought Paul to his knees and fear that brought me to my knees. I think it will be fear that brings the world to its knees. I really want to see the looks on those hypocrites faces when they see Jesus and then I would like to help them, for they need it the most.
God be with you. Pamela
--- End quote ---
All -
I just want to focus on the distinction between 'fear' and 'The Fear of The Lord'.
Unless I have got this completely wrong about Saul of Tarsus, it was not 'fear' that stopped him in His Tracks, it was The One he was persecuting (Jesus Christ Himself). Saul thought that he was righteous and was doing God's work, and I do not see that Saul was 'fearful' in what he was doing - as he was probably pleased with himself for 'doing his own good works'. If anything, Saul knew that it was God Himself who struck him down, and He identified Himself as Jesus (who Saul was persecuting).
Therefore, the only possible fear Saul could have had, as I see it, is that, Saul may have thought something like 'I thought I was serving God, when in fact I was fighting against Him and His Followers' - and yes, I am merely speculating here.
So, if Saul was in any kind of fear when Jesus struck him down, it could not be the 'fear that we are warned has torment' - it can perhaps, be, 'The Fear of The Lord' - as 'The Fear of The Lord' is both 'The Beginning of Knowledge', and also, 'The Beginning of Wisdom'.
When Saul was Named Paul by Jesus Christ, Paul certainly was given By Him an abundance of 'Knowledge' and 'Wisdom', which we all cherish as 'Gems of His Truths', and 'The deep Things of Almighty God'.
I do not see Saul was in fear - like some may be - of say, going to hell; as Saul thought he was 'righteous in doing God's work'.
To me, Saul was struck down by Jesus Christ - and Saul most certainly knew 'The Fear of The Lord'.
Warmest Regards.
George
--- End quote ---
This seems to be directed toward me a little bit with my comments about God using fear to get Paul's attention. So here is how Im coming to this conclusion.
Pay attention to all the words.
Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling (G5141) and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
G5141
τρέμω
tremō
trem'-o
Strengthened from a primary word τρέω treō (to “dread”, “terrify”); to “tremble” or fear: - be afraid, trembling.
Also I never said Paul was afraid of going to a fabled hell of eternal torture, as Im sure he never even heard of such a doctrine. Im the one who was afraid of that fable, and it was one of the reasons I was caused to search out the truth.
Of course it was Jesus who stopped Paul, but it was the manner in which He stopped Paul that got my attention. Is not how God was saving Paul a "pattern" for how God will save all? Or does that part not count? This is an honest question because I always consider I may be wrong. Is the "pattern" ONLY about God showing patience? Yeah I can see how that could be. It's just hard to imagine non elect people not "trembling" like Paul did when Jesus shows up brighter then anything you can imagine.
The point is that God can use fear for an ultimately good outcome, just like He can use evil for good. I personally dont see anything wrong with fear as it is a natural emotion God created us with. It can actually be quite beneficial in some circumstances. But that's just my opinion right or wrong. Fear is fear and I dont need to know all the types to understand it. Besides, My poor confused little brain might explode if I try to understand what the fear of the Lord means. :D
I really like what Ray said here in reference to the way in which God will make sinners volunteer to repent. Enjoy.
https://bible-truths.com/lake3.html
Here’s the lesson: If Jesus Christ can bring to repentance, and convert, and save the WORLD’S WORST SINNER THAT HAS EVER LIVED in about 30 seconds, then that drunken cussing uncle of yours (the one you believe is going to hell for all eternity), is NO MATCH FOR THE CONVERTING POWER OF JESUS CHRIST! And ALL OF THE LESSER SINNERS of the world also are no match for the converting, saving power of Jesus Christ. Once the Giant of all sinners has been conquered, converting the sinning MIDGETS will be an easy task!
[/size]Has no one ever considered what would happen if God were to strike down Hitler with a BLINDING LIGHT FROM HEAVEN? Do you really think he would shake his fist toward heaven in total human defiance? Well, if you do, you think as a fool! Paul despised the Church of the Loving God. He hated it with evey fiber of his being. He went to great length and personal hardship to seek out and TORTURE the Saints of God. But when God struck him down with a blinding light from heaven, Paul "trembled"(Greek, tremo, dreadful and terrifying FEAR), and was "astonished" (Greek: thambeo, to stupefy, astound, amaze, astonish), and melted like jelly in the noonday SUN!
[/size]And some would suppose that Hitler or any LESSER sinner would do otherwise? Well, God didn’t strike down Hitler with a blinding light from heaven, but guess what? HE WILL YET DO IT! And when He does, Hitler will sob like a babbling idiot! He will violently shake and tremble in UTTER DESPAIR AND TERROR, and he will REPENT, make no mistake about it! OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE! God has ways to MAKE carnal-minded, God-defying men and women VOLUNTEER real fast!
--- End quote ---
You are absolutely correct in your your understanding of the Scriptural use of the word 'fear' (trembling) - and your conclusion is also sound.
I was wrong, and in error, on this point; and I apologise to you, and to all the other Forum users.
It does indeed point to The Lord using fear (trembling) to stop Saul in his tracks.
I see that now.
I am grateful that you took the time to explain this so thoroughly and clearly.
Warmest Regards.
George
Porter:
It's all good George. Sometimes Im not very clear or even very sure about what Im trying to say. Just as an fyi, I don't fear God like the way I used to before learning the truth. The subject of fearing God is a tough one for me personally. I read in the bible to fear Him, and I read others say not to fear Him. I guess the only reason to fear Him at this point is if we sin willingly?
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
That fiery indignation stuff sounds scary lol. :P
Forgive me Pamela if I went off topic a bit, so I'll just shut up now.
cheekie3:
Porter -
Thank you for sharing your insight on this, and you explain your understanding very clearly:
--- Quote from: Porter on December 08, 2016, 07:36:48 AM ---It's all good George. Sometimes Im not very clear or even very sure about what Im trying to say. Just as an fyi, I don't fear God like the way I used to before learning the truth. The subject of fearing God is a tough one for me personally. I read in the bible to fear Him, and I read others say not to fear Him. I guess the only reason to fear Him at this point is if we sin willingly?
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
That fiery indignation stuff sounds scary lol. :P
Forgive me Pamela if I went off topic a bit, so I'll just shut up now.
--- End quote ---
I personally believe, that if anyone's heart's desire is to please Him and Obey His Commandments, then He will ensure that He 'keeps them In Himself'.
Regarding 'The Fear of The Lord'; and also 'The Beginning of Knowledge', and 'The Beginning of Wisdom' - I have always loved 'The Book of Proverbs' and 'The Wisdom' it contains - and Ray mentioned 'That The Principle Thing is Wisdom', and in Scripture (I think in The Psalms), there are Verses that state that 'The Principle Thing is Wisdom', and 'In Wisdom He Is Creating'.
We all know 'That His People perish because they lack Knowledge'.
To me, He first drags His Elect to Himself, whereby He starts to impart 'His Knowledge' to His Elect - and from 'His Knowledge', His Elect begin to understand 'His Wisdom'.
So if we turn this around, we can perhaps, say, because His Elect desire 'His Knowledge', and 'His Wisdom', His Elect have 'The Fear of The Lord'.
So what exactly is 'The Fear of The Lord'?
To me, 'The Fear of The Lord' includes an understanding of the following:
1. An acknowledgement that He Is and Has Always Been, and Will Continue to Be.
2. All is of Him and from Him and for Him.
3. He is a Consuming Fire Who refines His Elect into pure and precious unique precious stones.
4. He is Sovereign.
5. We are not free to do our own wills.
6. His Will (and His Intentions) Will always Be Done.
7. He is Life, Light and Love.
8. He is Our Heavenly Father.
In summary, if His Elect have 'The Fear of The Lord', they Reverence Him, as only He can create life (and if He so desired, only He can destroy life - remember that physical death is not the end of anyone's life).
Warmest Regards.
George
Dennis Vogel:
Ray uses the word 'punish' in this video: https://youtu.be/o5YCfZQ7XfU
And Ray said "Getting Saved is the Hardest Thing You Will Ever Do in Your Life"
cheekie3:
Dennis -
Thank you for sharing this audio:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on December 08, 2016, 11:22:05 AM ---Ray uses the word 'punish' in this video: https://youtu.be/o5YCfZQ7XfU
And Ray said "Getting Saved is the Hardest Thing You Will Ever Do in Your Life"
--- End quote ---
I listened to it again; and Ray clarifies the True meaning of 'Grace', and 'Faith' - and indeed expounds on what 'Grace' actually does in us (in our hearts) - and that although it is all of God, we must 'walk in the steps He prepared for us' in order for 'His Grace' and 'His Faith' to 'Work in us', as He is 'Creating mankind In His (Spiritual) Image'.
Warmest Regards.
George
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