> General Discussions
Ray's Teachings - Women in the Church?
hillsbororiver:
Hi Rocky,
Long time no see, how have you been? It is good to see you here.
In regard to what you wrote above;
Our lives are very short, just a vapor, our salvation should come before our marriage, our families, our friends, but if your spouse is not a stumbling block you should not divorce her or ignore her needs.
We are only conceived in the spirit as of now, our minds are to put away carnal, fleshly thoughts but we are not transformed into true spiritual beings yet, can any of us here or do you know anyone who fits this description?
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
We are earnestly awaiting our transformation, we are not there until the resurrection.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
eggi:
This is a question I've been having for quite a time. Now it has been raised again, although indirectly.
hillsbororiver you state:
--- Quote ---Our lives are very short, just a vapor, our salvation should come before our marriage, our families, our friends, but if your spouse is not a stumbling block you should not divorce her or ignore her needs.
--- End quote ---
I've long since discovered that divorce is an option:
The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. (Mat 19:3-9 KJV)
In my bible (Norwegian Bible) there is no good distinction between the words "porneia" (fornication) and "moichao" (adultery). It reads (translated into English) : But I say to you, that the one who separates from his wife, except for reasons of adultery, and marries another woman, commits adultery, and the one who marries a divorced woman, commits adultery. (Mat 19:9)
According to those words there seems to be NO thoughts behind this statement at all. Why would Christ say that the only valid reason for divorcing (or separating) is adultery, but then if you remarry you COMMIT ADULTERY again?
I thought this was the truth until God showed me that the pharisees are tempting Jesus with the question: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for EVERY reason? After all this was the law of Moses:
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.(Deu 24:1-2 KJV)
So what Jesus is saying is that you DON'T divorce for ANY reason anymore. You have to LOVE your mate, some uncleanness is not tolerated as a reason for divorce anymore. If you divorce because you have found SOME uncleanness, then you are committing adultery if you marry another woman. These reasons are just not tolerated anymore. Please, if you have comments on this, let me know.
This brings me on to the question (finally):
How should we define when a spouse has become "a stumbling block"?
rocky:
--- Quote from: rocky on November 16, 2006, 09:31:39 PM ---
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on November 16, 2006, 08:54:54 PM ---I don't think there is a problem with Ray's stance as it is scriptural, if someone has a problem with Paul's statement their problem is with the scriptures themselves. Yes, it is true that there will be a time when male/female will no longer be relevent, but that is not now, not while we are yet in the flesh.
I hope this helps a bit in answering your 2 questions.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
--- End quote ---
here is some interesting scripture too, by Paul
1Co 7:29 Yet of this I warn you, brethren: the time has been shortened--so that henceforth those who have wives should be as though they had none,
or in more modern version
1Co 7:29 Now let me say this, dear brothers and sisters: The time that remains is very short, so husbands should not let marriage be their major concern.
and
regarding being in the flesh, what about this verse
Rom 8:9 And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ--this one is not His;
--- End quote ---
I just find it interesting that the warning re: marriage is to men and not women.
hillsbororiver:
So what Jesus is saying is that you DON'T divorce for ANY reason anymore. You have to LOVE your mate, some uncleanness is not tolerated as a reason for divorce anymore. If you divorce because you have found SOME uncleanness, then you are committing adultery if you marry another woman. These reasons are just not tolerated anymore. Please, if you have comments on this, let me know.
This brings me on to the question (finally):
How should we define when a spouse has become "a stumbling block"?
--- Quote ---
--- End quote ---
Hi eggi,
I am wondering how you come to the conclusion, " So what Jesus is saying is that you DON'T divorce for ANY reason anymore. You have to LOVE your mate, some uncleanness is not tolerated as a reason for divorce anymore. If you divorce because you have found SOME uncleanness, then you are committing adultery if you marry another woman. These reasons are just not tolerated anymore. Please, if you have comments on this, let me know."
When it is plainly written;
Matthew 5:32 (King James)
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Jesus is saying if you "put away" or divorce your spouse for any reason other than , fornication(adultery,unfaithfulness ) then you are committing adultery and putting others in the position of committing adultery.
It had been a common practice for men to "put away" their faithful wives only because they lost their youthful luster, they were not as pleasing to their eyes as they once had been. That was what He was speaking of, even though it was acceptable under Mosaic Law to divorce for any reason it was admonished against as being displeasing to the Lord in Malachi 2;
Mal 2:14 Yet ye say, Wherefore?, Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
Mal 2:15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
The ultimate authority on this would be between a believer and the Lord within, how He impresses their concience. There is no one size fits all answer or an earthly authority. If a husband or wife is sleeping around ignoring their responsibilities to the children, the household, the extended family, isn't that being unfaithful? If drugs, gambling, alcohol come before family obligations, is that also being unfaithful?
1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
I hope this helps, His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: rocky on November 17, 2006, 10:57:54 AM ---
--- Quote from: rocky on November 16, 2006, 09:31:39 PM ---
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on November 16, 2006, 08:54:54 PM ---I don't think there is a problem with Ray's stance as it is scriptural, if someone has a problem with Paul's statement their problem is with the scriptures themselves. Yes, it is true that there will be a time when male/female will no longer be relevent, but that is not now, not while we are yet in the flesh.
I hope this helps a bit in answering your 2 questions.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
--- End quote ---
here is some interesting scripture too, by Paul
1Co 7:29 Yet of this I warn you, brethren: the time has been shortened--so that henceforth those who have wives should be as though they had none,
or in more modern version
1Co 7:29 Now let me say this, dear brothers and sisters: The time that remains is very short, so husbands should not let marriage be their major concern.
and
regarding being in the flesh, what about this verse
Rom 8:9 And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ--this one is not His;
--- End quote ---
I just find it interesting that the warning re: marriage is to men and not women.
--- End quote ---
Hello again Rocky,
Under Mosaic Law woman had virtually no rights at all, they were almost like livestock.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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