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Deborah-Leigh:
This is way over my head but sounds like those that set themselves apart are the nation of judah and the other group are the gentile nations and God is going to punish them both together.Now thats what I get out of the literal word,that judah had become as bad and the gentile nations when it came to obeying Him,I could aply to the church that God sees the people that beleave in freewil,those that sanctify themselves,like he does those in the world that are unclean.when I read that it seem to me that there are two groups,those that sanctify themselves and those that eat unclean foods,

I do not think that this so way over your head Jerry....! :D It got me thinking that the nation of Judah did set themselves apart, above and higher than the gentile nations they were to share their knowledge of God with and did not. Instead they became separate, arrogant, self sanctified,  and they also began to compromise and introduced  the pagan teachings and practises. They, Gods  " chosen people" had became full blown pagans and were so when Jesus Christ came . Much like, I think it will be throughout Christianity when He returns....

I enjoy your introduction to the free will idol of the heart. The one group teaches free will. You have to choose Christ nonsense like say this two second prayer and be saved trashy heresy.  The other group who bow to the free will of their pagan mindless, speachless lifeless Gods....Buddha, Krishna and oh do not forget the trek to Mecca to parade around a black box....etc....

Ray mentioned two kinds of food, mice and swine....I do not know what these represent. All I know is that my anticipation to see and know the truth is heightening!.... :D I know I do not know. I know only that I want to! ;D I enjoy thinking about and searching for the truth. :D

M_Oliver:

--- Quote from: Andy_MI on November 24, 2006, 09:58:47 AM ---Here's a letter I sent to Ray and his reply.

Hi brother Smith,

In regards to "why they eat mice."

I'm thinking that the key is in this verse maybe?

Isa 66:3 KJVR
(3) He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their so ul delighteth in their abominations.

They eat mice because their soul delights in their own ways and abominations.

The Philistines worshipped golden mice.

1Sa 6:4 KJVR
(4) Then said they, What shall be the trespass offering which we shall return to him? They answered, Five golden emerods, and five golden mice, according to the number of the lords of the Philistines: for one plague was on you all, and on your lords.

Jesus said that His flesh and blood needed to be eaten.

Joh 6:53 KJVR
(53) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Since the people in Isa 66:17 were eating mice rather than eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Son of man, then they were practicing their own man made doctrins and religion. The babylon harlot system.

Please let me know if I'm on the right track.

Blessings to you,

Andy

Dear Andy;:

Very good. You are closer than anyone thus far. In fact you are the only one who mentioned eating the body of Christ. Obviously the eating of mice is a symbol of something spiritual, not literally eating mice. Swine and mice are two categories of "unclean meats" under the law of Moses. So if we are not to each unclean meats such as swine and mice (not mice specifically, but mice is an example of a vast categor of of little fury creations not to be eaten), are we to eat clean food--beef, turkey, etc? No, if the "mice" is symbolic of what not to each, then what we ARE to eat must also be symbolic. And contrary to the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation, Jesus meant eating His body as a symbol for something spiritual as well.
But there is more: we have the garden? and its connection with "the worm that dies not and unquenched fire?" Also, WHEN does this occur? Before the resurrection to judgment? After the resurrection to Judgment? Both before AND after? Etc. There needs to bee a connection between Judgment in Matt. 5:22, and Gehenna fire, and this garden which represents something that only one other commented on.
Does the lake of fire begin when Christ begins His reign on this earth? Are the "Gehenna of fire," and the "lake of fire" the same? Are they in use at the same time? Will then, those who say "Raca" to their brothers, in Christ's Kingdom, be cast into the lake of fire, BEORE the resurrection of the dead unbelievers to the Great White Throne of Judgment? Etc., etc., etc. I will cover it in Part D. There is a lot of things involved in these few verses.
God be with you,
Ray



--- End quote ---

Great job Andy!  You might be the one who has to bring this baby home  ;D.  God is humbling me right now I can say that for sure.  I'm stalled on this big time.  I'm only getting spark in a couple of cylinders if ya know what I mean  ;).

Mark

eggi:
It just occurred to me that the word "gardens" is used in 1Co 3:9.

For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry [garden], ye are God's building. (1Co 3:9 KJV)

Paul is speaking of the fruits produced in that garden:

I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. (1Co 3:6-8 KJV)

Again, considering the scriptures in Isaiah:

They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. (Isa 66:17 KJV)

The fact that the word "garden" means "fruits" sheds new light on Isa 66:17. They that sanctify themselves and purify themselves in the fruits behind one tree in the midst (the tree of knowledge of good and evil), they that eat swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, SHALL be consumed together. Seems like this is talking about when you rely on your own fruits that come from the knowledge of good and evil, and not from the tree of life.

This is basically the same like I said in my previous post on this subject, but the "gardens" and "fruits" are an addition to what I said before.

Also I'm thinking that there are five different aspects that SHALL be consumed together. They are:


* they that sanctify themselves,
* they that purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst,
* they that eat swine's flesh,
* the abomination,
* and the mouse.
These are related. The last part of the verse "[...] shall be consumed together, saith the LORD" raises the question: WHEN will they be consumed together. The key to understanding this lies perhaps in knowing something about the abomination:

Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD. (Jer 6:15 KJV)

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. (Dan 11:31 KJV)

Could "take away the daily sacrifice" indicate giving up on the law and our own works? I can't figure out how the placing of the abomination fits in to this, so excuse me, I'm just trying to ask questions!

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (Mat 24:15 KJV)

At this point I can't see WHEN this will be. I believe it has an outward and inward application. It will stand in the holy place, is that the temple, within us?

It seems to me that this related to us submitting to God, recognizing that HE will save us, and not ourselves:

At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel. And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images.
In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch, which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation. Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips: In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow.

But to them that don't recognize this:

Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters! The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind. (Isa 17:7-13 KJV)

The noise of the seas are also mentioned in Rev. 19:

And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. (Rev 19:1-7 KJV)

Is this all talking about when the rest of the world are brought to see that salvation is of God only?

I'm waiting to see and learn more. Does anyone else see anything regarding this?

Deborah-Leigh:
Some more food for thought. Isn't Ray good at giving us food ;D

Here is how he answered my effort to explain vs 17.


 
Dear Arcturus:
As most of the attempts at this difficult verse, you too have given some good answers.  And your answers are true. However, verse 17 appears not to against all humanity, as back a few verses we have God's spiritual nation being born in one day, then back three verses in verse 14 we read of those whose "heart shall rejoice" because "the hand of the Lord shall be known toward His SERVANTS, and His indignation toward His ENEMIES."  So I do not believe that God's Elect are part of those mentioned eating mice in the garden.
 
God be with you,
Ray

So what about "God's spiritual nation being born in ONE DAY"  The scriptures say that.....To God one day is as a thousand and a thousand are as one day..... Do you think there is something in that? Could this point to the new millenia where Christ reigns a thousand years?

As eggie comments....WHEN?  Is this not when .....
"the hand of the Lord shall be known toward His SERVANTS, and His indignation toward His ENEMIES." in the day of the Lord. I somehow do not think this is now. I think it is at the final judgement after the first ressurection where those in Christ will be raised up to rule with Him and the second death will be for those appointed to the White Throne. This is where your scriptures make sence for me Eggi.

FRom Ray's LOF part 14 quote

THE DAY OF THE LORD AND II THESSALONIANS II

Most of us not unlike the Thessalonians of Paul’s day are aware of a prophetic time spoken by the prophets known as "The Day of the Lord." The Thessalonians knew somewhat of this day and what it portended, as Paul spoke to them earlier about it. Now he has to tell them in this second epistle,

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that THE DAY OF CHRIST is at hand" (II Thes. 2:2).

Never forget that Jesus Christ IS ‘The LORD,’ and so the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord both represent the Son of God.

Notice what Paul had instructed them in his first epistle concerning the coming of the Lord:

"…and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the Living and True God; And to wait for His Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" (I Thes. 1:9b-10).

Paul tells them of his suffering:

"For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain: But even after that we had SUFFERED before, and were SHAMEFULLY ENTREATED, as ye know… with MUCH CONTENTION

(I Thes. 2:1-2). Then Paul speaks of their suffering and the reason for sending Timothy to them:

"That no man should be moved by THESE AFFLICTIONS: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto" (I Thes. 3:3).

Paul states that:

"Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our AFFLICTION and DISTRESS by your faith" (I Thes. 3:7).

And so Paul tells them of his afflictions, and also acknowledges their afflictions. Again Paul assures these Thessalonians that:

"For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so comes as a thief in the night… For God has NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thes. 5:2 & 9).

Well Timothy reported back to Paul that they were having even more tribulations and persecutions to the point that they were thinking that they must be in that period of time of "The Day of the Lord," and that they themselves were suffering wrath from God.

Once more Paul acknowledges these tribulations and suffering:

"So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in ALL YOUR PERSECUTIONS AND TRIBULATIONS THAT YE ENDURE" (II Thes. 1:4).

But rather than wrath from God, Paul assures them that this suffering is really a token of God’s righteous judgment and that God will be punishing those who are persecuting them:

"Which [suffering] is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be COUNTED WORTHY of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God recompense tribulation to them that TROUBLE YOU" (II Thes. 1:5-6).

Then Paul gives them one more giant promise of rest from all of these sufferings:

"And to you [and to US as well] who are troubled REST with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction [eonian extermination] from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power; When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) IN THAT DAY" (II Thes. 1:7-10).

And next we come to the Scriptures of our present study. Paul comforts them in their persecutions and tribulations. He assures them that endurance in faith will account the worthy to be in the Kingdom of God, and that they will have rest at the coming of our Lord to be glorified in His saints and admired in ALL THAT BELIEVE. This is the way of the believer leading up to the coming of the Lord and the "Day of the Lord," when all will be changed and glorified. But Paul tells them that that day is not here yet.

Listen carefully: Generation after generation after generation of believers and saints of God have lived, suffered and been persecuted, and then DIED. This "Day of Christ" or "Day of the Lord" not only did not come in their lifetime, but it will not be a reality to any of them WHEN IT DOES COME, unless something else happens in their lives FIRST!

Unless this experience happened to them in their lifetime, whenever they lived, they will not be in the First Resurrection and see the Coming of the Lord in the Day of the Lord. Something had to have happened to them—all of them. Something HAS to happen to YOU—ALL OF YOU who expect to see the Coming of the Lord and the Day of the Lord and be accounted worthy to be in The Kingdom of God. Yes, we already read in II Thes. 1:10, "When He shall come to be glorified in His saints…" And He will be glorified in all His saints at that time, but not unless something has happened in all of His saints FIRST!

Until and unless the thing that I am going to mention next is an accomplished FACT in your PRESENT life, you will not see The Coming of the Lord, neither will you be in the First Resurrection of spiritual rest and glorification. I kid you not, this is deep and heavy stuff!

 

BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD CAN COME TO YOU

Here then is what must be accomplished in your life before you die:

"Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness, and the work of faith with power: THAT the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be GLORIFIED IN YOU [IN YOU], and YE IN HIM, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thes. 1:11-12)!!

How then does our Apostle Paul tell us this MUST be accomplished? What must happen? What must we do? Or rather what must Jesus do IN US? Here is the Scriptural answer:

"Now we beseech YOU, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him.

That ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that THE DAY OF CHRIST [The Day of the Lord] is at hand [FOR YOU...].

Let no man deceive YOU by any means: for that day shall not come [TO YOU…] except there come a FALLING AWAY FIRST [BY YOU…], and the man of sin be revealed the son of perdition [IN YOU…TO YOU…]; Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped [IN YOU…]; so that he as God sits in the temple of God [‘which temple YE ARE’ II Cor. 6:16] showing himself that HE IS [YOU ARE / I AM] a god

Remember ye not, that when I was yet with YOU, I told YOU these things?

And now ye know what withholds [is restraining, is detaining—‘the falling away FIRST’] that he [‘the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition’—YOU…] might be revealed in his time [in YOU and TO YOU—individually, not collectively] in his time [‘his {particular} time’]—FOR YOU and FOR ME and for ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL GENERATIONS UNTIL JESUS COMES TO US ALL, COLLECTIVELY, AS THE MANIFEST SONS OF GOD]."

Long before Jesus can have a COMPANY of manifest SONS and DAUGHTERS of God, there has to be individual begettals by the Holy Spirit of God in chosen individuals in every generation leading up to the coming of the Lord at the end of this age.

"For the mystery [secret, hidden truth] of iniquity [lawlessness] does already work [‘is inwardly working’ The Emphasized New Testament: A New Translation (J. B. Rotherham)]: only he who now lets will let [‘only he who restrains will do so’], until he be taken out of the way.

And then shall that Wicked [Lawless One] be revealed IN [IN YOU] and TO YOU, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming;

Even him [not original], whose coming [the man of sin called son of perdition IN YOU] is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (II Thes. 2:1-9).

So to answer my own question....with another question :D is this process not yesterday, today and tomorrow?....The Judgemtment on the Chruch is now and the White Throne is ahead......Am I on to something here do you think?


Arcturus :)

Slim:
Your Moslem brothers don't eat pork. Your Jewish brothers don't eat pork.

I believe that pork truly is "that other white meat". Ham, bacon, yum yum. If the worst thing I ever did was to eat pork, I would be doing really, really good. The sin comes from within, not without.

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