> General Discussions
Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
Kat:
Hi Arcturus,
I understand your concern on this matter.
But let us consider these scripture.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Those in the first resurrection will reign andrule, and judgment was given to them.
These are the elect that endured to the end, this is there reward.
I do not believe the WT judgment is going to be terrible for everybody cast in.
Think about John the Baptist, I do not believe he will face punishment, but taught about Christ's death and resurrection and brought to salvation, probably quickly.
Those babies will have to be taught about Christ too, not be punished, for that is the only way to receive salvation.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters in by Me, he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture.
The only way to enter the kingdon of God is by salvation in Christ, which these babies and people that never heard of Christ and even the prophets of the OT, all will have to go through this teaching and receiveing of the spirit of Christ, that they may enter the kingdom.
Waht do you think about this? Does it help with the idea that not all will be punished?
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Kat
Thanks for the help....
I went and searched Ray’s article on the Secret Rapture. I found that God’s saints are not appointed to His wrath or indignation.
Then this scripture came to my mind.
Is 28 : 27 For dill is not threshed with a sharp threshing instrument, nor is a cartwheel rolled over cumin; but dill is beaten off with a staff, and cummin with a rod by hand. 28 Does one crush bread grain? No, he does not thresh it continuously. But when he has driven his cartwheel and his horses over it, he scatters it tossing it up to the wind without having crushed it. 29 This also comes form the Lord of hosts, Who is wonderful in counsel and excellent in wisdom and effectual working.
Then you said quote… : After the purging is completed, Satan will be brought to salvation also.
Even tho I think he will be the first in and the last out. I liked that one! So does this show a gradient of judgment as perhaps indicated in Isaiah 28 above do you think?
Isaiah 26 : 9 For when Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
That being the children who did not live to enjoy this training will receive it in the White Throne Judgment?
And
1 Tim 4 : 10 For this is GOOD and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have al men to be saved, and to come to the KNOWLEDGE of the truth.
Am I on the right track?
Peace to you all
Arcturus :)
Andy_MI:
Getting back to the topic....
I think we need to make a distinction between the terminology of salvation and reconcilation.
Here's what Paul says:
Col 1:16 KJVR
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
God is the Creator, He did so by His own soverign will.
Notice v 20:
Col 1:20 KJVR
(20) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Here Paul says that He has RECONCILED all things by the blood of His cross.
The "all things" of creation have also been "reconciled," and Paul defines this for us as: "having made PEACE."
In other words, reconcilation has to do with making "PEACE" and establishing harmony, as opposed to discord
and opposition.
Now concerning SALVATION
Here's what Paul says:
1Ti 4:10 KJVR
(10) For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.
1Ti 2:4 KJVR
(4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
He says nothing about saving Satan or his demons.
Here's what Paul says about JUSTIFICATION
Rom 5:16 NKJV
(16) And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
He says nothing about justifying Satan and his demons.
Here's what John says about PROPITIATION
1Jo 2:2 KJVR
(2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
He is talking about people, the world of mankind, as distinct from us as believers.
He does not say that Christ became the propitiation for Satan and his demons.
Here's what Paul says about RESURRECTION
1Co 15:22-23 KJVR
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
The context shows clearly that he is talking about mankind.
He says nothing about resurrecting Satan and his demons.
Each of these terms has a different meaning and application, and while they are often related and apply to the same groups of people, they are not precisely the same.
Salvation has to do with one's health and well-being, which has been compromised by the death sentence upon Adam and his descendants. Justification is a legal term and has to do with a court case and how to be declared innocent in view of one's past sins. Resurrection has to do with being raised from death to life, or from mortality to immortality.
Going back to my analogy about bugs and mosquitoes and bacteria. I don't believe bugs and etc. will be saved. They will, however, be reconciled, because they are a part of God's creation. This does not mean that bugs will be justified, for we have no biblical teaching that any bug will appear before the judgment seat of Christ or before the Great White Throne. Nor will bugs be resurrected from the dead.
Maybe I'm wrong here,,, but......
I cannot see how every mosquito and fly in history will be raised from the dead. The earth would then be thick with such creatures in the Kingdom.
The Bible never says that Satan will be saved, justified, or resurrected. It only says that the reconciliation will include things in heaven as well as on earth.
But if bugs will be reconciled, but not saved, then why must we say that Satan and his angels will be saved? I do not believe that Satan will be "saved."
Even though there are people who do not even believe in a "personal devil" but equate it to the carnal mind. It would still
be revelant to this because the carnal mind will not be saved, but replaced with the mind of Christ, thus reconciling all things. When the mind of man is reconciled, there will be peace and harmony between God and man.
Paul chooses his words carefully by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
1Co 15:27 KJVR
(27) For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
To reconcile creation means to bring creation into subjection to the rule of Christ, because all things [GK ta panta, "the all"] must be put under His feet. Peace will then be restored, not because He rules by fear forcing all to worship Him, but because all will submit themselves by Love and by full agreement.
So because reconciliation applies to all creation, it cannot feasibly "save" every creature that ever lived, nor justify every rock and tree, nor resurrect every mosquito. It sounds obsurd to me.
What I'm seeing is that God will treat angels differently.
Mat 25:41 CLV
(41) Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers."
Jesus spoke here of "the aionian fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels." I believe that men are purified or purged in the fire, because God is a consuming fire. The fire consumes "the flesh," leaving only what is good. As for the devil and his angels, God is also a consuming fire to them. The question is whether there is anything good in the devil that is NOT consumed and which may remain in the end. I do not believe there is, and therefore, it is my belief that the devil and his angels will be completly consumed by God.
To consume is to eat or assimilate. God can "eat" in this sense without violating His character. For this reason, God told the disciples that if they drank any poison, it would not hurt them, and if a serpent bit them, it would do them no harm
Mar 16:18 KJVR
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Where did this ability come from? Obviously, from God, because as a consuming fire, He too is able to consume "the flesh" along with Satan and his angels without violating His sanctity. All vice will simply be assimilated by the all-consuming fire of God.
This is what I am seeing and believing at this moment. My main concern in all this is the fact that it has been stated
that Satan and all the demons will be saved and there is not one scripture that I've found that comes close to that.
We must be careful not to add to or take away from God's word.
Peace,
Andy
YellowStone:
Andy,
Your post was beautifully constructed and well presented. I too agree with all you state, as it fully supports the saving of all mankind.
I will never go as far as saying that I know the mind of God, so I will continue to trust that his will be done. :)
Love,
Darren
Kat:
Hi Andy,
I do not look at the salvation of all creation, to include bugs and any animals life.
You must know Christ to abtain saivation.
1Th 5:9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
So only the things in creation that have a mind, and can know Christ can obtain salvation.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. And the sea no longer is.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison.
Rev 20:8 And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them.
"...Fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them."
http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ---------------------------------------
Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.
"And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the EARTH [of man] and the HEAVEN [of man] fled away; and there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM… And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a NEW heaven and a NEW earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." (Rev. 20:11, 16 & 21:1).
It would be mind-boggling enough to think that the entire UNIVERSE could "flee away," but it would be quite another to then suggest that, "there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM." That would be absurd if taken literally. ALL THESE THINGS ARE SPIRITUAL! In the white throne judgment there will be no more a place for the flesh, for the carnal mind, for man’s heaven. There will truly be no place found for them. They will be annihilated in God’s "CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29 & I Cor. 3:15)!
God will give man a new earth and a new heaven, and as for the great sea of carnal, God-defying humanity, "…and there was NO MORE SEA."
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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