> General Discussions
Satan - Saved or Reconciled - Is There a Difference?
iris:
This is a very interesting thread.
I looked up the word RECONCILIATION in "Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary". It says...
Reconciliation: Bringing together of two parties that are estranged or in dispute. Jesus Christ
is the one who brings together God and man, with Salvation as the result of the union.
Reconciliation basically means "change" or "exchange". The idea is of a change of relationship,
an exchange of antagonism for goodwill, enmity for friendship, attitudes are transformed and
hostility ceases.
Col. 1:20 KJV
(20) and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto
himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
If Jesus Christ reconciles all things in heaven and earth, then Satan would be reconciled with
Salvation as the result.
Does this sound right?
Iris
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Andy
You wrote:
This is what I am seeing and believing at this moment. My main concern in all this is the fact that it has been stated
that Satan and all the demons will be saved and there is not one scripture that I've found that comes close to that.
We must be careful not to add to or take away from God's word.
I found the following in my notes I keep on this subject about Satan.....Here is quoting an excerpt from Ray in an e-mail responce….
…I have backed up by teaching with several thousands of Scriptures in my “Lake of Fire” series…..When God gets finished with the angels (which we shall also judge), and unbelievers, and Satan, He will, of course, save them all.
The righteous will reign with Christ on earth until God becomes “All in All” (1 Cor 15:28)
In another e-mail response Ray writes….
The world has been BLINDED. God Himself has blinded the world (even though He uses messengers of evil to actually do the blinding at times). God Himself will have to REMOVE THIS BLINDNESS in order for people to see. This God will do. Have you not read where the “KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD (SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE FROM God is NOT BLINDNESS ) SHALL COVER THE EARTH AS THE WATERS COVER THE SEA!” All mankind, all the heavenly host, and even Satan himself, will come into a knowledge of the truth – ALL WILL BE SAVED (in heaven and earth.)
Unquote……
Then if you read Ezek 18 : 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him who dies, says the Lord God. Therefore turn, be converted and live!
Personally I do not believe God will use annihilation of anyone or any spirit being. I believe He is totally powerful to subdue, convert and transform Satan. He transformed a man called Paul and changed his name to Saul. Is Gods power only able to convert a man and not a spirit? Does Gods power have a limit? And thereafter He has to annihilate the enemy because He can not subdue, convert, convict of sin judgment and righteousness?
John 16 : 11…the ruler, evil genius, prince of this world Satan is judged and condemned and sentence already is passed upon him.
The above has helped me to really get a hold on just how Sovereign our God really is! He is SOVEREIGN OVER ALL! and I get a kick out of that! Hope you do too! :D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Chris R:
--- Quote from: Arcturus on December 02, 2006, 06:32:44 AM ---Hello Chris R
As I understand this so far....some are being judged now and some will be raised to judgment at the White Throne.
Rev20 : 6 Blessed and holy is he that takes part in the first resurrection! Over them the second death exerts no power or authority, but theyshall be ministers of God and Christ and they shall rule along with Him a thousand years.
Does this mean for adults only? ???
Are you saying that babies will be raised to the White Throne Judgement? ???
If so then I have to re-think...again!....
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
--- End quote ---
Hello Arcturus,
ALL will be judged, Were is it written differently?
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
"Every man is every man" it is not every man except a few.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
What about those that; ARE FOUND IN THE BOOK OF LIFE?..Did they receive judgment? of course they did! if not how is it that they received a reward?...
It is true that Judgment must begin at the house of God, but because judgment begins, says nothing of its final outcome. Else why does Christ say to those who endure to the END will not be hurt of the second death?
And if these "endure" to the end, how is it that you know?...because you are Judged
Judgment is not always a bad thing, it is in this instance, "a good thing"
hope this helps
Chris R
YellowStone:
Hi Arcturus,
Are you suggesting that because God "is totally powerful to subdue, convert and transform Satan" then he MUST?
It would appear that according to Jesus, Satan has been already judged, something we ourselves cannot say.
Jhn 16:11
* Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Here is our witness:
Isa 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
I find it interesting that not once in 1,000's of pages of Scripture is ever mentioned that Satan is saved.
WHY IS THAT?
Could it be that it is simply not that important. :)
Here's why.
Mar 12:30-31
* 30 - And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.
* 31 - And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Do you or any other feal that our God, his Son and all of the writers of old purposefully left out the Salvation of Satan if it were important.
Please know that God's will be done and our greatest task is to Love God with all our strength, soul and mind, and others as much as ourselves.
Just my thoughts, comments always welcome,
Love,
Darren
stego:
Hi Andy,
I think in order to understand whether or not Satan and whether or not bugs and other animals are saved, we first have to understand what these beings really are as compared to us, which I would say is a very difficult task in and of itself. For example:
1. Do bugs have the capacity to "sin"?
I don't think so, but it's hard to know what a bug experiences without being a bug!
2. Do dogs have the capacity to "sin"?
mmmmmm, while intuitively i would say bugs can't sin, i can't just straight away say that about dogs/cats. I just don't know.
3. Is Satan an actual being that experiences things, or is he just a symbol that represents the concept of "evil"?
I do believe that scripture supports the idea that Satan and his demons are actual beings. If it were indeed true though that Satan was not an actual being, but rather just a symbol of evil, then i would agree completely with you Andy, that God's all consuming fire would of course just destroy the evil, and therefore Satan would cease to exist and God would be Righteous to do so.... but in this case Satan never really did exist as an actual being, but rather just a symbol of evil.
4. Is it right to cause an actual being to cease to exist because of his sins, when he only sinned in the first place because God caused him to do so?
To this I say no way! It would not be right for God to cause us to cease to exist because we sinned, and because God is just, he provided a savior to pay the price of our sins and also the means to be cleansed of our sins. If Satan is an actual being as we are, he is no different then us in that God caused him sin, and to be miserable because of his sin, and thus God must provide Satan a way to come out of his sins or else he has been cruel to Satan, and is thus not 100% righteous.
Andy you said:
--- Quote --- Jesus spoke here of "the aionian fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels." I believe that men are purified or purged in the fire, because God is a consuming fire. The fire consumes "the flesh," leaving only what is good. As for the devil and his angels, God is also a consuming fire to them. The question is whether there is anything good in the devil that is NOT consumed and which may remain in the end. I do not believe there is, and therefore, it is my belief that the devil and his angels will be completly consumed by God.
--- End quote ---
I think we must understand that God's all consuming fire consumes character traits, not actual people/beings. So it is true that there is nothing about Satan's character that is worth saving, but Satan himself is indeed worth saving, just as is every other living creature. All Satan does is sin, but he only does this because God caused him to for his own good purpose, so Satan is actually an extremely important contributor to our happiness in the grand scheme of things.
As far as the deffinition of reconciliation to God vs. salvation, i would agree that the two concepts do not actually mean the same thing. BUT i would also say that you cannot have one without the other! Any sinning being can only be reconciled to God by being saved from his sins! Like i said before, i don't know that bugs/dogs/cats are sinning beings, so i don't know if this applies to them (thus maybe they can be reconciled to God without salvation, because they have no sins to be saved from). But Satan most certainly sins, and thus must be saved to be reconciled (brought to peace) with God. You also mentioned rocks being saved being a rediculous idea, and of course it is, because they are not alive. Trees too, because they surely cannot sin.
You stated:
--- Quote ---This is what I am seeing and believing at this moment. My main concern in all this is the fact that it has been stated
that Satan and all the demons will be saved and there is not one scripture that I've found that comes close to that.
We must be careful not to add to or take away from God's word.
--- End quote ---
I don't wanna do this, so here are the supporting scriptures for what i have said here:
1. The scriputre/s that say God is 100% perfect, soverign, righteous and good.
2. Mat 25:41 CLV (41) Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers."
3. The scriputre/s that say God is the cause/creator of both good and evil, and that he made them both for his good purpose.
4. The scriputre that says God is Love, and the one that says he loves his enemies. (God hates what Satan does, but loves Satan himself!)
If there is any need for me to find the specific scriptures i described above, i can do so.
Sean
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