prodigal son

[rocky]

I have always thot of the prodigal son as representing the elect, those shown mercy rather than hardening, vessel of honor rather than dishonor. 

If this is the case, then who does the older son represent.  I've always thot of the older son as representing the many called. 

But then i read this verse regarding the older son,

Luk 15:31 "Now he said to him, 'Child, you are always with me, and all mine is yours.

Luk 15:32 Yet we must be merry and rejoice, seeing that this your brother was dead and revives, and was lost and was found.'"

Kinda of strange that the older son had full inheritance (all mine in yours), yet never went the route of destruction. 

So this makes me think that maybe the prodigal son represents the called, and  those who go by the broad road to destrction (Lake of Fire). 

any thoughts??

[bobf]

I think the prodigal son was first a vessel of dishonor and later a vessel of honor.

Like Esau, the prodigal son sold his inheritance for a bowl of stew (riotous living). He was reduced to the level of pig. His father called him "lost and dead".  The word "lost" is apollumi which also means "destroyed".  So he was a vessel of dishonor who was destroyed.

But once he realized the error of his ways and repented and returned home, he was shown mercy. Thus he became a vessel of honor.

[rocky]

I think the prodigal son was first a vessel of dishonor and later a vessel of honor.

Like Esau, the prodigal son sold his inheritance for a bowl of stew (riotous living). He was reduced to the level of pig. His father called him "lost and dead".  The word "lost" is apollumi which also means "destroyed".  So he was a vessel of dishonor who was destroyed.

But once he realized the error of his ways and repented and returned home, he was shown mercy. Thus he became a vessel of honor.

Yeah, I agree.  And that's why i'm wondering if he represents the many called rather than few called and chosen.  While the faithful son (older son) represents the called and chose??

Mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mat 7:14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I guess i see the Lof as complete destruction, the stone falling on HIm and crushing him, rather than him fallling on the stone. 

[bobf]

Are you sure the elder son was faithful?  He SAYS he was faithful.  In fact, he claims to NEVER have sinned:

Luke 15:29  And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends.

But what does Christ say about those who think they have no sin?

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Look at the elder son's attitude:

Luke 15:28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.

Compare how the pharisees and the elder son complained about accepting and eating with sinners.

Matthew 9:10  And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

Luke 15:30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

I don't think the elder son is elect at all.

[hebrewroots98]

I'm not sure just  which one is the elect; I'm thinking that the prodigal son is he elect b/c he repented and finallly lived right; whereas the oldest son whom always had lived right had suddenly developed a hardened heart and become jealous (evil and unforgiving.), kind of like the two boys switched roles/hearts???   This will be interesting to see what the real story is.

( I do know that in MY earthly Family I am always the black sheep; and yet I do realize that our fight is not against the flesh and blood but, against the evil one, thus they are not spiritually minded, rather carnal.)

THANKFULLY tho...to those whom HE loves are sons indeed!

[lilitalienboi16]

I have always thot of the prodigal son as representing the elect, those shown mercy rather than hardening, vessel of honor rather than dishonor. 

If this is the case, then who does the older son represent.  I've always thot of the older son as representing the many called. 

But then i read this verse regarding the older son,

Luk 15:31 "Now he said to him, 'Child, you are always with me, and all mine is yours.

Luk 15:32 Yet we must be merry and rejoice, seeing that this your brother was dead and revives, and was lost and was found.'"

Kinda of strange that the older son had full inheritance (all mine in yours), yet never went the route of destruction. 

So this makes me think that maybe the prodigal son represents the called, and  those who go by the broad road to destrction (Lake of Fire). 

any thoughts??

I believe the prodigal son to be about the elect and their lives.

We all come to the truth and see how marvelous it is, and then before that man of sin is revealed comes the falling away. We go into a far away land and spend all our money that we had, and we don't return until we have rolled around in the filth of the pigs and come to see the beast we are, how the works of our flesh are discusting until we get so sick of sinning that we return to our father and just tell Him, look make me one of your servents i'n not even worthy, and then when we are completely broken is when He gives us everything, when He fainly take sthe throne in the temple of our hearts.

Thats how  i see it, and have for a while. Let me know what yo uthink, agree disagree, why/whynot.

God bless,

Alex

[bobf]

Matthew 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29  He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30  And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

One son refuses to go but later repents and goes.  Isn't that what the prodigal son did?

Meanwhile, the other son SAYS "I go" but does not go. Didn't the elder son say "I go" when he said "...neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment..."  But was the elder son telling the truth?  I don't see how, seeing as "...they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one...."

[lilitalienboi16]

Something very important guys is..

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Christ saves that WHICH IS LOST.

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

I'm pretty sure the one that is 'saved' [He that endureth to the end shall be saved.] is the the elect, a type and shadow of the elect and their life.

Atleast how i still see it, feel free to share your insight.

God bless,

Alex

[Robin]

On one of Ray's tapes he said that all the parables are the same. He said if you understand one parable you will understand all of them.

[lilitalienboi16]

On one of Ray's tapes he said that all the parables are the same. He said if you understand one parable you will understand all of them.

Yup many are called and few are chosen, that can be seen in ALL the parables.

God bless,

Alex.

P.S. I'm off to bed

[rocky]

I hear you all, and can and have seen it the same way. 

But several things make me wonder, one is the verse i posted on broad is the way to destruction and many go that way (many called, few chosen) and narrow is the way to life (few).  The prodigal son took the path to destruction.  Secondly, the verse that Jesus says to the elder son,

Luk 15:31  And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.


That to me doesn't sound like the whore, babylon.  Why would Jesus say to the whore, all that I have is thine. 

The other thing is as Bob pointed out, the prodigal son is like Essau, who sold his inheritance for a bowl of soup.  Well in Romans 9, we know that Essau is who is hated, and Jacob is who is loved (for election purpose).  Jacob represents the few called and chosen doesn't he? 

I also see the LOF is seen as the means to repentance through complete destruction, so again the prod son seems to fit that bill. 

But as a lot of you have posted, there is good argument the other way, and I do agree with what Bob wrote about the elder son was prideful, and didn't see his sin (sounds like a pharisee to me), and i find it interesting the elder son is the first born, and we are told the elder is to serve the younger.  Essau was the elder son, so maybe the prodigal son shouldn't be looked at as the one who sold his inheritance for a bowl of soup, but there sure is some resemblance; being given the inheritance up front, and wasting it away. 

Anyway, thanks for the dialogue, good thots. 

[rocky]

Here are a few more thoughts on this, the prodigal son seems to me is reflective of those who build their house upon the sand. 

Mat 7:26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand  (wasted inheritance??):

Mat 7:27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

The prodigal son built his house upon sand, and great was his fall. 

Luk 13:35  Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luk 13:34  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!


But we have the example of those who don't build there house on sand, but on the rock (chosen and faithful)


Mat 7:24  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Mat 7:25  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock.


Luk 20:18  Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken (chosen and faithful); but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder (prodigal son, house built on sand).

[Kat]

I found this in Ray's LoF article 4, thought I would add it.

http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html ----------------------------------------

LOST: Can a person sin, be lost, die, and then be saved? Certainly. Let's look at one of those parables of Jesus that Christendom thinks are easy to understand little stories, when in fact they don't even begin to understand. You all know the story contained in the parable of the Prodigal son so I won't read it all, but let me give you the "truth" of this parable.

God is the "Father" in this parable, and the Prodigal is EVERY SON WHO HAS GONE ASTRAY.

"And when he had spent all ... And when he came to himself ... I will arise and go to my father ... I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight ... And am no more worthy to be called thy son ... But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring hither the fatted calf ... For this my son was DEAD, and is alive again; he was LOST, and is found. And they began to be merry" (Luke 15:14-23).

This man SINNED, he was LOST, and he SPIRITUALLY DIED! Do we ALL spiritually DIE? "AND AS IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE..." But isn't this speaking of the PHYSICAL death of our bodies? No it is not. The second part of the verse gives us the answer as to which death this is,

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but AFTER this the JUDGMENT" (Heb. 9:27).

Notice that "judgment" comes after this death, and not before. We already learned that JUDGMENT is upon the house of God NOW! Each individual Christian in every generation is judged NOW, in THIS life, BEFORE he physically dies! And so the "death" that all men must partake of before judgment is SPIRITUAL DEATH. Notice:

"And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, STAND before God" (Rev. 20:12).

How pray tell can the physically dead, stand, if they are dead?

So here then is the order of things. The Prodigal Son SINNED, he was LOST, he spiritually DIED, and then? And then he was JUDGED! Where and when was he judged? In the hog pens of a far alien country, that's where. God had to bring him out of this alien county (Mystery Babylon the Great) with all its "riotous living" (Luke 15:13). And so it was that God JUDGED this Prodigal with the beasts and swine of Babylon until he "came to himself." (Ver. 17). Seems to me that God sent King Nebuchadnezzer into the fields with the beasts to live like a beast, so that he too "came to himself." God has not warned in vain to

"Come out of her [MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH] my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 17:5 & 18:4).

Him that has an ear, let him hear.

And so this Prodigal SINNED, was LOST, and spiritually DIED. Surely he is outside of the realm of salvation now. No, he is in the perfect realm FOR SALVATION. How many millions of times this parable of the Prodigal Son has been read, but how many times has its truth ever been understood and perceived? This prodigal was, according to his father, "DEAD." And it was after his father said that he was "dead" that he welcomed him back, forgave him, exalted him, and rewarded him! Now who says one can't be saved after death. It is after death that most of humanity will be saved.

May God finally grant you to SEE SOMETHING SPIRITUAL! Parables are NOT literal, that's why they are called "parables" instead of "history." This parable pictures the carnal mind going the way of the flesh. What are the wages of living a riotous life in the alien land of lustful Babylon? Is it "life and joy in the holy spirit?" I speak as fool. Here is the wages of riotous and carnal living in the hog pens of Babylon: "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23). SPIRITUAL DEATH! What must happen AFTER we spiritually DIE? "JUDGMENT!" The spiritual DEAD must be JUDGED. Does judging CORRECT the spiritually dead sinners? Yes it does. That is what the parable of the Prodigal Son is all about. God's "ways and means" ALWAYS WORK!

"...For when Thy [God's] JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[rocky]

Thanks Kat. 

Ray quotes a verse

"Come out of her [MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH] my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 17:5 & 18:4).

That is interesting to me.  did the prodigal son partake of her sins?  or did he come out before partaking of her sins?  Did he receive the plagues (destruction)? or did he repent before the plagues? 

Seems to me, the called, chosen and faithful come out of babylon, before destruction by plagues. 

Also, the Nebechenezer sp? example is helpful.  He went the way of destruction in order to come to a point of repentance.  He had to have everything stripped of him.  He received the plagues. 

Thanks again.

[Kat]

Hi Rocky,

That is interesting to me.  did the prodigal son partake of her sins?  or did he come out before partaking of her sins?  Did he receive the plagues (destruction)? or did he repent before the plagues? 

Seems to me, the called, chosen and faithful come out of babylon, before destruction by plagues. 

Yes I do think we partake of her (the church) sins,
when we are there, we are just as blind as they are.

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues.

So if we do come out of her (the church), as it says "that you may notreceive of her plagues."

We have this assurance that if Christ is in us, He will protect us from the plagues that come.

Psa 91:14  "Because he holds fast to me in love, I will deliver him; I will protect him, because he knows my name.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[dogcombat]

One underlying point in this and other parables is RELATIONSHIP.  The Prodical parable says the father has 2 sons one who stayed, and the other, who left.  The father obviously LOVED both sons and here is how it appears to me.  The Prodigal son wanted to be AWAY from his father and live it up.  The other son stayed with his father while the other was away.  The question is, to a casual glance, though the father LOVED both sons, he didn't really have a RELATIONSHIP with either one. 

Just as our Heavenly Father LOVES us.  Some who are lost are caused to see their waywardness repent of that sin, like the prodical son was.  On the other hand, the other son represents those who think, just because"I was here working my tail off...." will feel shafted at the love shown to those lost sheep who wander from the shepard.  Was "being there" enough to be called a RELATIONSHIP ?   Jesus said that not all who call Him Lord Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  This refers (to me) to the home son.  Just because you did good work (in your eyes) doesn't mean your work won't be filthy rags.  Because they were done to please your flesh, it's filthy rags to God.

That verse Rocky and Bobf point to about election is in Romans 9:11

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, NOT OF WORKS, but of him that calleth;)

As we grow in proper RELATIONSHIP with our Father in Christ Jesus.  Then the work we do, as the Spirit leads, will prosper in what God intended.

Ches

[Kat]

Hi dogcombat,

I like what you have said.
This parable is about the church. Those in the church are introducted to Christ, so to speak, but they do not 'know' Him.
He is our first love, but then we fall away, as the prodigal son left his Father, we too lose our first love.
We were always lost, as the church is, but when we hit rock bottom, when we have went the ways of this world to the point we can not take it anymore and we see how filithy we really are.
Then we come to our senses, or our eyes are opened, and then we begin to have a relationship with Christ and the Father. 
It is at this point that we are able to really appreciate, what we are given in Christ. 
It is a great day when God brings us home, and clothes us.
The brother was satisifed just to have a knowledge of Christ, but did not have a relationship with Him.
All have to go through judgment, the elder brother or the whole church, will have to go through judgment later, as the prodigal son or elect are going through judgment now.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Pax Vobiscum]

By far, the most interestng character in this story is the stay-at-home son; but that's not what's on my mind.

Why all the talk about which son fulfills anyone's idea of who is "saved" or "elect?"  Such talk is clanging bells.  I believe the overarching theme of this (and, yes, all biblical parables) is that love conquers all -- therefore, if God is love -- then God conquers all.  Whichever path brings us home is the right path and is cause for rejoiciing -- sometimes party-like and sometimes in the quiet confidence of a dutiful son.

Does it matter which son you are or I am?  What matters is all are welcome to come home.  I do not understand the futile impulse to categorize each other.  Jesus did not ask us to evaluate one another -- He asked us to love one another.  It's that simple.


The story stands on its own without meddling.  It is a beautiful lesson on life, love, acceptance and forgiveness.  It is folly and does Jesus' words a disservice to try and make His lesson into something to make us feel special -- we already are!

Peace

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

Beautiful, beautiful

  I think that this story is so tampered with we lose the orginal beauty of it just as your post says.  Your post has showed me the original beuaty of this parable.  All things are beautiful until mankind tampers with them to justify his own position of things.

  Sincerely,


  Anne C. McGuire

[Joey Porter]

I have always thot of the prodigal son as representing the elect, those shown mercy rather than hardening, vessel of honor rather than dishonor. 

If this is the case, then who does the older son represent.  I've always thot of the older son as representing the many called. 

But then i read this verse regarding the older son,

Luk 15:31 "Now he said to him, 'Child, you are always with me, and all mine is yours.

Luk 15:32 Yet we must be merry and rejoice, seeing that this your brother was dead and revives, and was lost and was found.'"

Kinda of strange that the older son had full inheritance (all mine in yours), yet never went the route of destruction. 

So this makes me think that maybe the prodigal son represents the called, and  those who go by the broad road to destrction (Lake of Fire). 

any thoughts??

The verse that you underlined has always thrown a bit of a wrench into my view of the parable, which seems to be the same as yours.  That is, if the stay at home son represents the called, the one who will be cast into outer darkness, the one who will be weeping and gnashing hist teeth, looking at the kingdom from the outside, then why does his father tell him "you are always with me, and all that I have is yours?"

First of all, the stay at home son has to represent the many called who will not be in the kingdom, because it harmonizes with all of the other parables such as the 99 sheep, the faithful and wicked servants, the house on the sand or the rock, the rich man and Lazarus, and so forth.

There is only good one answer that I can surmise as to why the stay at home son is told that.

Ezekiel 14
4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself in keeping with his great idolatry.

2 Thessalonians 2
11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

That's the best I can come up with.  In this parable, Jesus is showing us how God will answer the called according to the idols that they have in their heart so that they remain complacent, because of their carnality and stubborness.

That could also be why in the parable of the wedding banquet, the man is speechless when he is asked why he is not wearing wedding clothes.  Because, due the idols in his own heart, he was given over into thinkingthat  he was on the narrow path to life, when in fact he was on the path to destruction.