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kill or don't kill - does God change?
iris:
This has been a really good thread,
and has made things a lot clearer for me.
Thanks!!! :)
Iris
hillsbororiver:
This has been a very interesting thread. First off I want to say that it is greatly appreciated that we can have differences of opinion and not degenerate into strife and contention. Thank you all. This shows a higher level of spiritual maturity than what has sometimes transpired in the past. It appears we are remembering that we are all at different levels of understanding and all have unique vantage points, no two people can stand in the same exact place at the same exact time so no two people will perceive everything in the same exact manner.
My perception of the OT has completely changed from just a history of physical Israel as they journeyed with Jehovah to the Promised Land. I now see the OT as primarily the spiritual future of the elect as they bring all of humanity to God with Jesus (Jehovah) ruling with a rod of iron. Remember that the Spirit of Christ along with His elect are the Lake of Fire, as physical Israel destroyed the flesh of it's (Jehovah's) enemies, spiritual Israel (the elect) will destroy the carnality of the unbelievers, idol worshippers, etc. in the Lake of Fire.
How can it be called murder for God to take the life of someone? He gave it in the first place and promises to return it in a more perfect and immortal state in the future, this is where faith comes in.
If I were to take my brother's troublesome old car while he was away and trade it in for a a brand new car paying the difference myself would that be considered theft?
When discussing whether the Lord changes, as some spoke of earlier in this thread what appears to be changing is just another step in the plan and purpose of God's original unchanging plan. Let me use another example;
I buy an old house with some scrubby old trees and overgrown landscaping, my plan is to remodel this house so I begin to rip out old floor coverings knock down some walls and tear off the old dilapitated shingles and sub roofing. To the casual observer I am destroying the house, it looks as if it is being demolished.
Then I bring in a bulldozer and backhoe and start taking out the scrub trees and scraping the lot of all the overgrowth until the lot is clear and graded smoothly. To this same casual observer it appears that I was not satisfied to just demolish the house but apparently I must destroy trees and plants to get my jollies as well.
I begin bringing new sheathing for the roof and new shingles to finish it off as well as drywall and ceramic tiles working tirelessly to get this house not only restored but better than it ever was. To our friend the casual observer it is clear, I must have changed my mind and am not destroying the house but in fact I am going to rebuild it now. Did I really change my mind or was the casual observer unaware or misunderstanding my plan from the very start?
The next day new trees, plants and sod are put in, did I have a change of heart? After taking the land back to bare earth I then put in new trees and plants? Can't I make up my mind?
I hope these examples were of some help.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
TRUTHSEEKER:
I must say that I have learned quite a bit from reading everyone's responses. Especially, Dwight's. I have not seen the comparison between how God used natural Israel and the holy land as being the physical preceeding the spiritual; and the spiritual being how Christ dwells in our hearts like God dwelling over Israel of old driving out our carnality as Israel drove out the inhabitants of the promise land. That is a remarkable comparison. I can see it now. Truly God has never changed. Exactly as he planned in the beginning what will happen so it will happen. I must commend everyone on an excellent post. Probably one of the best post I've participated in as of yet. Be blessed all.
Truthseeker
John:
WOW! What a difference a nights rest can make. I can see it now. Praise God!
Thank God for muddy water. If it were not for seeing through the glass darkly, I wouldn't be enjoying this new level of vision this morning. I sure do appreciate everyone's replies.
What a GREAT subject Sorin, I hope you found some clarity on this too.
Peace,
John
Pax Vobiscum:
You know those "magic pictures" that were so popular years back? The ones where you supposedly stared "through" them to see the underlying picture? I never could see them either, so here goes....
I must say I love most of the posts on this thread and am impressed by the timbre of the discussion.
Here's my understanding of the prevailing thoughts on this one.
1) God is unchanging and has an unchanging divine plan.
* I am with you on this one *
2) God has seen fit to exercise his "right" to snuff out "innocent" life -- but it's His life to do as HE will.
* I'm still holding on with anthropomorphic breath *
3) God orders and causes a whole lot of smiting in the OT.
* I am starting to slip away *
4) Jesus (God?) comes along in the new milennium and says, "I got some new rules to live by. No more smiting. It's all about the Spirit now"
* I'm a goner *
OK. Joking aside. If we put this in terms of strategy and tactics, where strategy is the plan and the tactic is the manifestation of that plan, then I am hearing that only God's tactics changed -- His strategy being the divine plan. That's a change, nonetheless.
If we use a parental model, I certainly understand how parents change tactics while the plan remains -- but it is still a change.
Even the appearance of Jesus is a change (if we accept the full divinity/personhood of Jesus). If He were fully God in the flesh, that certainly is a change.
There are examples after examples of the attributes of God changing (I will allow that the divine plan has not for argument's sake) in the Bible; so it is quite difficult to understand Malachi's "I change not" statement.
"I change not" and the "hic hoc hodie" statments in the NT do not specify -- they are quite general. There is nothing that says "My divine plan is the same yesterday, today and to come" or "My plan changeth not."
There are changes in relationships, circumstance, and attributes throughout our Bible.
Help me out, here.
Peace
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