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kill or don't kill - does God change?
gmik:
I just re read this entire thread. Boy it is good. It has clarified things for me. Now, I will re read it again and take notes. You know, some of our threads are really full of scripture & insight then they get buried and forgotten!
love,
gena
andrevan:
--- Quote from: Pax Vobiscum on January 06, 2007, 06:29:01 PM ---
If we use a parental model, I certainly understand how parents change tactics while the plan remains -- but it is still a change.
Even the appearance of Jesus is a change (if we accept the full divinity/personhood of Jesus). If He were fully God in the flesh, that certainly is a change.
There are examples after examples of the attributes of God changing (I will allow that the divine plan has not for argument's sake) in the Bible; so it is quite difficult to understand Malachi's "I change not" statement.
"I change not" and the "hic hoc hodie" statments in the NT do not specify -- they are quite general. There is nothing that says "My divine plan is the same yesterday, today and to come" or "My plan changeth not."
There are changes in relationships, circumstance, and attributes throughout our Bible.
Help me out, here.
Peace
--- End quote ---
Dear Pax.
An important thing to remember is that God never changes His mind. It was always His intention to have this course for humanity. For some of us is appears that God changes, but it was always His intention to do what He does.
God has preordained the changes within His divine plan, however, it does not follow that He changes or changes His mind or objective. It was always the Father's intention for His Son to become a man and die for humanity's sins and to prove to them that He loves them. The plan does not change, the changes are the plan. The objective does not change.
This is how I understand it.
Kat's analogy is a good one.
Love and peace to you.
Andrevan.
rrammfcitktturjsp:
To all who have responded to this thread,
You providing all the anaologies have really helped out. That was ingenious of you all to do that. Thanks for posting and explaining. Yes I agree with Joe, I am glad that we can speak our different opinions without digressing into unbecoming behavoir. You all have won so much respect with this thread. Keep up the good work.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
TimothyVI:
At least for me the question of whether God changed or not has been cleared up. He didn't change,
He was always all of the things that we have seen in Him.
After sorin asked a question three days ago we have used almost three whole pages answering each others
questions.
Don't get me wrong. I have really enjoyed what has been said, and have personally learned quite a bit.
But I don't think anyone has answered Sorin's real question.
but when He tells us to:
>" 'smite them, take the women unto thyself' then says 'thou shalt not kill,
> thou shalt not commit adultery/rape' I just don't see how He 'Changes not'
> and how that isn't contradictory one to the other.
>
> I mean He gave some permission to kill and commit adultery, then tells us to
> not even think it, or look at a woman to lust after her rather, and to turn
> the other cheek."
Sorin did not seem to be asking if God changed, as much as he was asking why God gave
contradictory commands. Now it is easy to say that He didn't change because He was
always contradictory from the beginning. I know that is ludicrous, It borders on blasphemy and I certainly would never say it. But the question still begs an answer. Why did he tell people
that they should never do something, and then command them to do that very thing.
Kat, In your analogy you were raising your children to be good kids. In doing so you had to change your methods based on their age and maturity as well as the circumstances at the time. But your anology would have more closely fit with Sorin's question if you had said that you taught your three children that they should never
fight or steal, and then told them to go next door and beat up the little girl over there and
bring her bicycle back to your house. And then declare that it was O.K. because you gave them permission to do so.
Do you think that your children would understand the distintion between when it was O.K. to steal and when it was not?
Therein lies sorin's confusion. And Ray did not answer him by saying that the commandment is "thou shall not murder", not "thou shall not kill".
Well, as I said earlier, I am totally at peace with my understanding of whether or not God changes now.
I still do not understand why his commands were contradictory. It was sort of like He was saying, do as I say, not as I do.
There are some things that I just have to accept and move on I guess.
You are truly a God blessed group of individuals. Thank you for being here, and thank Ray for providing this forum.
Tim
andrevan:
Hi Tim.
The way I see the answer to Sorin's questions is as follows:
God is the law giver. He is also sovereign. They can only "break" His laws when He gives them the permission to do so. At this point they are no longer breaking His law. God is above His law.
When they broke His commandements without specific permission, they became lawbreakers and sinners. There is no contradiction in God and what He says or does. Without the law there is no sin.
God has the sovereign right to "override" His law to them when He requires something to be brought about.
This is how I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong ;)
God bless you all.
Andrevan.
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