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God's only begotten Son

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Robin:
This was all new to me when I got here Darren so I have much to learn and I'm not in any position to see what is right or wrong with any of the comments unless I've read something that Ray said. I'm eager to watch and learn though. I struggled very hard with this when I first got here. I came to a simple understanding that I was comfortable with after much prayer. It was a hard teaching for me to accept at first.

YellowStone:
M.G.

You are doing fine! I'm kind of different because I want to quite a few different churches growing up, and they all differed to a greater or lesser degree, so I kind of didn't believe any of it. That is what differed from what I read and studied myself. Being told that I wasn't spiritually mature enough to understand a concept that "they" couldn't explain always seemed like an oxymoron to me. :)

It's a great place to learn so please never be afraid to ask for understanding; for there are many here more knowledgeable than I. :)

Brotherly love in Christ,
Darren

DWIGHT:
Hi Allan and Darren,

Brothers, I think that you are both seeing the same thing from a different perspective.  Jesus is both the first creation and the eternal Son of God.  Again, this sounds like a contradiction, but it isn't. 

Listen to what Isaiah says, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."  How can something created be called, The mighty God, The everlasting Father?  Well, it just said so.  The only begotten Son is The mighty God and The everlasting Father.  Don't try to read something into it; it is what it is.  It doesn't say that He's like the Mighty God or He's like the everlasting Father; it says, He is The mighty God, he is The everlasting Father....that's His name, that's what He shall be called.

Now, this scripture is a witness to the scriptures that Darren quoted.  "In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word....WAS GOD." Jn. 1:1  So, we have proof that Jesus was God...even as Ray points out that Jesus Himself never claimed to be God...but thought it not robbery to be equal with God...

Now, Paul says in Col. 1:15 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:..."  and in Rev. 3:14 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"  These two scriptures match the fact that Jesus is the first of all of God's creation, these are the scriptures that Allan quoted.  Both are 100% right.  Jesus is the almighty God, the everlasting Father, the Word, who was God, and the firstborn of every creature. 

It all goes back to cause and affect.  When a husband and wife come together they create a child.....male and female=child.  They caused a child to be created.  Right?  God, being male and female, created the only begotten Son who is the firstborn of all creation.  The earthly child was always in his earthly father as long as that father has lived.  But the Spiritual Father, has always lived, and has always been eternal.  Therefore, the Son who was always in the Father, is therefore, also eternal. 

Can Jesus be both?  Yes, the scriptures say so.  Ray says, we just have to believe the scriptures.  This is very deep, but I believe that God wants us to know the deep things of God.

In Him,

Dwight

Alan:
Hey Darren,

I think I see what you are saying now!

I will quote you....."That God, created Christ (Jehovah) is a given, but there is no Scriptural proof to my knowledge that ever states when. We simply do not know; however, the Scriptures do say on this matter:"

There is no scriptural proof of when God created His Son and I'm not saying that there is.

We do not know what happened before Genesis 1:1, but I believe that Christ was created and not infinite as the Father is.

God could have created Him right before the creation as we know it, or it could have been way before. From my understanding, time has no relevance in the spiritual realm.
I believe that when the holy scriptures talk about the beginning, I always equate it to the start of Genesis. I will post some of the scriptures you use....

Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (of creation=Gen 1:1)  and the ending (when death is destroyed, Christ is in subjection to God and God is all in all), saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Jhn 1:1  In the beginning (of creation) was the Word, and the Word was with God (with God, pre-existing but not eternal/infinite), and the Word was God. (My father and I are one) 
Jhn 1:2  The same was in the beginning (of the creation) with God.

(((((((((("So if the begining means of all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers (Col 1:16)" Then this surely means that: "Christ was eternal with the Father before the start of creation" )))))))))))

This only means that we don't know when Christ was created, but He wasn't eternal with the Father. Anything that comes out of something is not eternal, but something that has a beginning. When exactly that beginning was.......maybe we will find out when we are given spiritual immortality!

I'm not trying to debate.....and I hope I don't come off harsh and cold.

In Christ,

Alan

Joey Porter:
I don't think that a belief that Christ was not "created" in any way would be synonimous with a belief in the "holy trinity" as it is taught in mainstream Christiandom. 

Let's go to the scriptures:

Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised.

The KJV renders it "worshipped and served the creature." This verse is a clear admonition against the worship of anything or anyone that has been created.  And yet we know the scriptures also say:

Matthew 28
9Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.


Hebrews 1
6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
   "Let all God's angels worship him."

Romans 8 also presents a problem for us if we believe that Christ is a part of creation.

20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

I just don't believe we can do justice to the scriptures or to Christ by calling Him a creature. 

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