> General Discussions
free will?
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: gmik on May 08, 2007, 04:12:52 PM ---Great Joe, thanks!
--- End quote ---
You are very welcome Gena.
His Peace to you,
Joe
YellowStone:
Hi to everyone,
Before to many feathers get ruffled :)
How about a comment on my two posts. I know, there is no scriptual proof. Just simple laws of the universe that God created. Need we need more. :D
Love to everyone.
Darren
rocky:
For me, what was the turning point to not believing in free will was to do a study on the state of unregenerated man. Who are we without the spirit??
The saying always is, Christ's sacrifice offered salvation to all, but until man reaaches out and takes the sacrifice, it's not effective.
But when you look at the state of man spiriutally who is not regenerated, he is blind, deaf, leprosy, mute, demon possessed, lame, sick etc. The healings of Christ physically are examples of our spiritual state without the Holy spirit.
So how can a blind, deaf, mute, leporous, lame man reach out and take the gift of salvation unless he first is given eyes to see, ears to hear, and arms/legs to reach out.
Faith is a fruit of the spirit, not the means to the spirit.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
For something to be of the spirit, it's origin is the spirit. Faith's origin is the spirit, not free will.
skydreamers:
--- Quote ---With the leading, from God, towards repentance , still requires a "Yes, I will repent", or "No, I will not repent".
--- End quote ---
Hi seminole,
Yes, you are right, choices are made by man. Man has a will. But if we assume that man's will can supersede God's will in a matter, than what are we really saying? Man's will has more power or holds more authority than God's will?
Even if, (for the sake of looking at both angles), man is able to say "no" to God...would God at some point give up on His creature, or is He able bring about endless circumstances until man says "yes"?
2 Samuel 14:14 And God does not take a life, but has devised plans so that the outcast is not cast out from Him.
Luke 15:4-5
4 "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it?
5 "And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'
A sheep can make all sorts of choices as to which way he is going...but the Shepard does not give up until he finds it, and then brings that sheep home on his shoulders!! How cool is that? It is "on God's shoulders" to bring us home, into the fold. It is by His strength and His power. So while a sheep can make foolish choices and wander away from God into danger....and we have been all sheep who have gone astray...our heavenly Shepard does not get tired, or give up, or run out of ideas as to how to get His sheep home.
This parable, to me, says so much. Since when has it been up to sheep to find their Shepard?? And when the sheep is found, can he say: "No, no, I don't want to go, leave me in the wilderness so I can find some more dangerous cliffs to fall off of."
The sheep is unable to resist the strength of the Shepard who knows what's best for him.
We can make choices, and I think God orchestrates that we make choices destructive to our own lives, until we are like the prodigal son, wallowing in pig pens....he shows us the unbearable consequences of the wrong choices we make until we begin to make the right choices.
If we believe the scripture that God is all-wise, all-knowing and all-powerful, than who or what can stop Him from "devising plans so that the outcast is NOT cast from Him"?
Job 42:2
"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
Seminole, I know this is a difficult subject. It took me several months to come to grips with it and believe the scripture. But God did not give up on me, nor will He give up on you. For everyone it is different. I have a friend who understood nearly right away! You are searching and in time, God will show you His truth, I have no doubt of that.
Ray's extensive writings on "the myth of free will" hold so much scriptural evidence it's astounding...but it still took me three full reads to absorb it and "get it".
I hope this is somewhat helpful, but mostly I hope we are encouraging you enough to keep seeking...for God has promised, you shall find.
Peace and love to you,
Diana
CDJ:
--- Quote ---Numbers 22:23-31 "...And the a@@ saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the a@@ turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the a@@, to turn her into the way.
But the angel of the LORD stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side.
And when the a@@ saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again.
And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.
And when the a@@ saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the a@@ with a staff.
And the LORD opened the mouth of the a@@, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?
And Balaam said unto the a@@, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.
And the a@@ said unto Balaam, Am not I thine a@@, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? and he said, Nay.
Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face..."
--- End quote ---
12 Years ago, I was 19 and left for a working holiday to Israel. In the year I spent there, free from discipline, a jewish waitress at a restaurant where I was a dishwasher, gave me a book "The a@@ saw the angel by Nick Cave" to read. The whole world was open in front of me and I was having a ball with my newfound intelligence, of being free, independant and streetsmart. I was very eager to read the book, but it wasn't the story itself that fascinated me - it was the foreword. I started reading Bible from then on with a newfound passion, but only found out 4 years later, that my little favourite piece of prose/foreword, which I copied onto the back of a restaurant-placemat ("who reads Numbers anyway, was my attitude), was actually quoted from Numbers 22:23-31... I still have that same placemat (miraculously), inside my Bible, because that's how God drew me 12 years ago... :-) ...and although it's sometimes hard to admit, but the story of Balaam's little donkey, jumping out the way the whole time, is basically everyones' little story.
6 or 7 years later, I'm in a meeting with 4 'disciples' and 2 'pastors', because I wasn't yet 'born-again/baptized', as all the others were that started with me. Sure, I had some issues, but was basically just stubborn. One pastor kept on talking when the other pastor interrupted and told me to open my Bible at Acts 17:26 and read out loud...
--- Quote ---Acts 17:26-27 "...And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:..."
--- End quote ---
I've made bad choices in my life, as has everyone else, but, like Jonah chose to run away, God's will had other plans for him... Sit down and look back at your life, look at your choices and where they have lead you. We're always looking for the big earth-shattering stuff, but miss the little things that lead us to something. God knows us better than we think we know ourselves, and causes the right circumstances for your current attitude to make a choice.
I think what's great about us here, is that with our combined experiences, we basically cover everyone's background, where someone else can relate to, and yet everyday each of us learn something new. I've learned a whole bunch of stuff just reading through this thread.
Thanx everyone :-)
Walk strong in Christ :-)
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