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free will?
ciy:
Joe,
I appreciate the websites about free will. That type of info is interesting and encouraging.
Diana
Great info. I really like the verse in 2 Samuel.
Darren
I think it is a good analogy.
Seminole
I do not think Joe was being sarcastic at all. "No free will" is a hard thing to accept. I was a big believer in free will and spoke on it often, but when that belief slowly eroded away I began to see how one is set free by this powerful truth of God's will and not my will. Now I have studied it for several years and know that it is true, but daily I fall back into Bablyon with thoughts like "If I had done this and that I would be in a different place now." Evert moment, I have to capture each thought and forget the past so that I can press on toward that mark set before me.
An example of you having "no free will", but you do have choices, is a wrestling match. I remember one particular scuffle I had as a kid where the boy had me down and demanded, "Say uncle"
I said no and continued to struggle against him. Again the demand. "Say uncle."
My firm will was that I was not going to say uncle, but the boy began to increase the pressure with each say uncle until finally my will changed and I opened my mouth and breathed out my new will and said the word "Uncle".
I wanted to say uncle because I had been caused to want to say it so I could stop the pain.
In my mind, I can very easily apply the verse in Psalm 37 "Delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart." See when I started wrestling the desire of my heart was to make him say uncle, but after I had "delighted myself in the Lord" during my struggle the desire of my heart was to say "Uncle".
I hope this does not offend. This is how simplistic my mind works.
God is Great
CIY
YellowStone:
Hi CIY,
Your post makes perfect sense to me. :)
Returning to my simple analogy of "willing" coffee, or more correctly, my inability to "will" coffee; I can however, "choose" to make coffee and make it. Choice is ours to make.
We can even choose to come to God, learn of him and from him. No one said we cannot choose this, for I myself "chose" this a long time ago.
However, God's choice is vastly superior than my own. No one can come to him until he drags one to him (I can't lay my hands on that vs at this moment) Regardless of how seemingly pure our motives are, truth is God's to give, not ours to take.
I too, for the longest time was on the Free-Will band-wagon; however, I always meant free-choice. But even this is an oxymoron of the highest order.
Because no matter how hard of fervently I choose to be a better golfer than Tiger Woods, my ability is the limititation, not my ability to choose. :)
If I choose to practice long and hard and if God has given me the ability required, perhaps, and it is a very big perhaps I could become a fair golfer one day. If for example this did happen, what is truly respondsible? Was it that I chose to become, or was it simply the many hours, days, and perhaps years of dedicated practice?
I believe it was both, my choosing to practice, coupled with a goal prompted the much needed practice; this was the cause. The effect was my becomming a fair golfer.
So, even our choice is not really free, for I can choose to do many things, but unless I do them they come to nothing.
Sorry that there is not Scriptual witness in this post :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
mari_et_pere:
I kind of see it like this: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Did I reply to this out of free will? Hmm......well I wouldn't have if there hadn't been an original post. I also wouldn't have if I didn't feel the desire to help or add my two cents in. But why do I feel that desire? I didn't choose to care about this post. I just do. And why? If it wasn't here, I wouldn't care, and therefore wouldn't be replying, correct?
The other day me and my wife were tense due to our hectic schedules. (outside chain of influence.) We were a bit snippy with each other. I went to work in a bad mood. On the way I got stuck in road construction. (another result of outside influences, not only at that very moment, but whatever messed the road up in the first place, which in turn made construction/repair necessary, scheduling which made it necessary for the construction to be on that particular day, and the other motorists' own chains of events that put them in that precise place at the moment along with me, who also had his own chain of events that put me there with them.) Ya follow? LOL. It's like a giant web.
Anyway, I was pretty flustered when I finally arrived work. Did I choose that? No, circumstances caused it. I finally "decided" to cheer up when I thought, ACCIDENTALLY THOUGHT, since the thought just occured to me (I didn't choose to have the thought, it was just there) that the right way to be is just brush the negative stuff of the morning away to go about my day the way I know is the right way. So then and only then did I finally "decide" to cheer up.
And of course, during my day "things happened" which caused other things to happen, causing us employees to "choose" courses of action throughout the day. Of course, I suppose I could've excercised my free will, said "forget about it" and left work, but of course that would do what? Cause ANOTHER chain of events that would cause me and my wife to have to "choose" courses of action.
A whole chain of events is what caused another chain of events. That chain has been turning since God created the earth. In fact, it appears that Creation itself was a chain of events. Our "free will" is extremely limited at best.
Ya see what I'm saying. Maybe not....................Just thought I'd "free willingly" add to the confusion ;)
Matt
Kat:
Hi Matt,
I understand what you are saying completely. I've tried to explain that everything is connected by circumstances beyond our control, but it's a hard thing to explain.
If you think about it every thought, word, and action that happens is connected to everybody else's thought, word, and action so that every single thing is like a chain reaction that He controls and is "work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." (Rom 8:28)
To try and think of all the people in the world, having all things caused every second, wow. How awesome God is to control all these things.
It is a very hard concept to contemplate, but He controls all things.
Eph 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
v. 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
YellowStone:
To All,
I am a little confused :)
Is the line of thought regarding "free-will" only free if the effect comes without cause?
Well, if this is true then God surely has not free-will either; (Shock Horror) :)
Please follow along.......
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Why? Was this some random event that God had no control of? :( Did he not first choose?
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
So when God said: Let there be light, it was NOT caused by some random thought, it was deliberate, God wanted light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
God wanted there to be light and he "willed" that there was light. The light did not magically and suddenly appear with out cause.
God said prior to making man: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen 1:26)
Will anyone stand up and say that this thought came to God without reason or without cause? :)
Surely on this premise, God decided to create man for a reason. Could it be that he had already planned it? I simply do not believe that the creator of the entire universe, including the delicate petals and sweet fragrance of a rose did so without reason or cause. God is free to think, plan and do. There is nothing random about him.
So what is Free-Will when viewed in the context of God? Whatever God wants, regardless of motive, simply happens. Cause and effect, not effect without cause, everything happens (effect) because of God wants it too; he decides (cause) God has no constraints, inabilities or limitations in His ability but he is not without order. God first formed man, then he gave gave life to the lifeless form. (something we cannot do because we cannot cause life out of dust)
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
God is free to will anything, not only because he is the creator of everything, but simply because he can. It is not the "free" in free-will that is important, it is the "will." Can we say "Let there be light" and will a darkened room be lit? Well of cause we can, all we need is a voice activated light switch. The thought process is very similar to Gods, God did not want darkness always, and neither do we. Yet we need some electrical device to switch an electrical circuit so that electricity can light an electric light bulb (oh we better have electricy or we are still in the dark)
How many provisions must be in place for us to turn darkness into light? Plenty! Yet God needed only darkness. God said, "Let there be light" and possibly all of the stars including our Sun were made. Were they made in an instant, that is irrelevant. The simple fact is that he "caused" it, because he willed it, not because he was "free" to do so. God is under no such constraint. :)
I can "will" an object to fall to my feet, by releasing my fingers; however, I can only do so if I have control of my fingers, that the object is free to fall, that I can actually hold it, that I am not hanging upside down (I cant will it to fall up) :) Oh, and I need gravity, for a helium filled balloon would not fall.
Gosh, I can't will it to fall. I have to set everything up so that the object can fall, and even then I am reliant on gravity which is of God. I am free to choose what I want, but I CANNOT cause it to happen without intervention. I cannot "will" the words onto the computer screen, they appear because of a myriad of thoughts, systems, electrity, ideas, plans, failures, break throughs, etc. Which all occured (sometimes many years) before I press a key.
Everything we do is intrinsically based on what God allows to happen. He caused gravity when something falls; He created water so we can get wet. He gave us a sense of smell and he created fragrences; he gave us a mind and the ability to think, feel and discover, yet we will never discover anything that God knew not first. :) I can plan and build and I can make something happen; however, everything I do, think or feel is surrounded by myriads of constraints and my inept inability. I simply cannot "will" a cup of hot steaming coffee in the morning without intervention or action :)
God can, I can't! ;D
Please let me know your heartfelt thoughts on this. Of course my thoughts are limited by my experience, but my ability to cause like God, is simply non existent, free or not.
Much Love to Everyone,
Love in Christ,
Darren
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