> General Discussions
Christ's death and his spirit
chrissiela:
Sorry Michael , but I disagree with you (somewhat). Here is why:
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Jesus IS the “brightness of His glory and “the express image of his person�, etc. But that does not make Him the Father. He, himself, is subject to the Father.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
When all things are subdued unto Him (Christ) then He will turn the kingdom over to the Father. He, himself being subject to the Father.
He is our "head", but He also has a head.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
You said that he is the “Everlasting Father� and I agree:
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
What does that mean, though?
everlasting5703 Father
H5703
עד
‛ad
ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.
H5710
עדה
‛âdâh
aw-daw'
A primitive root; to advance, that is, pass on or continue; causatively to remove; specifically to bedeck (that is, bring an ornament upon): - adorn, deck (self), pass by, take away.
To me, it means that He is the glory and the image of the Father (as previously stated) and the only IMAGE of the Father that we have, just as He told Philip.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
He is the image and the glory of the Father and He did, in fact, COME OUT FROM the Father (the Word of God made flesh) and return TO the Father (My Word shall not return void, it shall accomplish that which I please).
The Fulness of the power of the Godhead (the Father) dwelled in Christ, but Christ is a MAN. He is our LORD and our MEDIATOR, etc.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
There is a distinction between the Father and the Son.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
So I think I see what you are saying and I don’t think that we necessarily disagree (completely)…
I agree that Jesus Christ is no longer in the flesh and that He has returned TO the Father and is ONE with the Father…
Just saying that in terms of “Jesus Christ, the man�, Christ is the Son, not the Father. But He reveals the Father to us and is the only image of the Father that we have. Those who see Him and know Him see and know the Father.
The Holy Spirit is the Father AND the Son (ONE GOD) coming to make “their� abode with us:
Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Isa 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
So I can see how you can say that Jesus is NOW the Father… I just see it a bit differently. He came out from and returned to the Father and they are ONE, just as they were before the world was.
But Christ, the man, the word that was made flesh, is and always will be “the Son� and not all that the Father is, though all that the Father has was given to Him.
-----
As far as you saying that those who have “eternal life� (that which comes by and through Christ from the Father) not being able to die… if that were true (as I think you are meaning it) then how did Christ die? Or are you saying that he didn’t?
Christ was “forsaken� on the cross by the Father. This was so that He could die, as I see it. And those who are given “eternal life� through Christ now will never know spiritual death. I don’t necessarily believe that this means that they will not know physical death, at which time the spirit returns to the Father, who gave it. Just as it happened with Christ and with Steven, etc. The spirit is not the soul and it is the soul that is redeemed from the grave. So I am not sure what you mean by "never die". But perhaps that is for another thread or discussion.
Chrissie
Michael A.:
See it however you wish. But don't twist what I did say. I never said Jesus didn't have a head, or that he was not subject to the Father. Neither do I appreciate your putting words into my mouth. Let your argument stand (or fall) on what you say and the scriptures say, not on words or assumptions you put in my mouth.
I DID say that He has become "the Everlasting Father" as Isaiah penned: HIS name shall be called "Wonderful Counselor, Almighty God, Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace." And EVERYONE who comes to the Father comes through Jesus Christ, and He is the One who "fathers" that relationship betweeen God and man in man.
But you do err, the Father is here with us, putting all things under the feet of Jesus.
But you go ahead and believe whatever you want, even though it doesn't make sense enough to you and you cannot explain it to another.
If there is anyone else who wants to learn and grow and is teachable, I would be glad to assist. God wants all to become sons, and then father's too. The fruit God desires is children and life that continues on in Him.
Jesus is Himself the One who made the promise that we could sit down with Him in His Throne, even AS He overcame and sat down with His FATHER on His throne. Anyone who believes God's word, I will be happy to help. Anyone who thinks they already know it all, I can't help.
chrissiela:
--- Quote ---But you do err, the Father is here with us, putting all things under the feet of Jesus.
--- End quote ---
And I never said that he wasn't. So please do not put words into my mouth, Michael.
I was only trying to UNDERSTAND what you were saying, not put words into your mouth.
I can only tell you what it was I was HEARING in order to know if what I was HEARING was what you were SAYING.
I made no accusations, Michael. I only tried to point out where I thought my understanding differed from yours (and not by much, I might add).
... and further clarify what is was that I was saying as it partained to the difference (which I didn't see as critical, but apparently you do).
I didn't think that what either of us was saying was that different from the other, but I am not going to argue with you over the WORDS.
Be well,
Chrissie
ciy:
I love all of you folks because one of the main themes of the bible is the intent of your heart and I believe all of our intents are for the truth.
Chrissiella I can't pass on your scripture
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
If by your reasoning man cannot have the fulness of God because he must come through Christ then I guess woman cannot have the fulness of Christ because she must come through man. I am partly joking but as I write this that scripture is really worth pondering.
"Hear O Israel God is one God." God says do not make of me any similitude of a man. We shall have no graven images (something we can picture in our minds)
In the beginning was the (something spoken including the thought) and the (somthing spoken including the thought) was with God, and the (something spoken including the thought) was God. The (something spoken including the thought) was in the beginning with (something spoken including the thought). All things were made by (something spoken including the thought); and without (something spoken including the thought) was not any thing made that was made. In (something spoken including the thought) was life; and the (something spoken including the thought) was the light of men. And the (something spoken including the thought) shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended (something spoken including the thought) not. There was a man sent from (something spoken including the thought), whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the (something spoken including the thought), that all men through him might believe.
Get the point. You can go on with this.
The flesh profits you nothing. We are one with God. Being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God.
We have more power in this age than we can ever imagine. Seek it with all of your heart and do not let the veil of flesh hinder you. Must get that visual image of a flesh man hanging on the cross 2000 years ago out of the imaginations of our hearts and realized that He is and always was and always will be a quickening spirit. Picture you hanging on a cross and let that flesh die so that that quickening spirit can be quickened in you so that you can have a living resurrection.
Gotta go will get with you all later.
The true Truth will set you completely and forever free indeed. You got to ask yourself one question, "Are you free?"
I agape you.
CIY
Laren:
--- Quote from: ciy --- Must get that visual image of a flesh man hanging on the cross 2000 years ago out of the imaginations of our hearts and realized that He is and always was and always will be a quickening spirit. Picture you hanging on a cross and let that flesh die so that that quickening spirit can be quickened in you so that you can have a living resurrection.
CIY
--- End quote ---
:D :D :D :D
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