A question derived from one of ray's papers.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Ah.  I don't consider that to be witchcraft or sorcery, since it was done by the Lord

Yes you and the whole of Christiandom will agree with you Carol70


To quote Ray's teaching:

ONE OF THESE CREATED WICKED FORCES WAS A SERPENT

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made" (Gen. 3:1).

This God-created serpent deceived Eve (I Tim. 2:14).  God "made" "the serpent" who "deceived" Mother Eve. Notice that God did not create something called "Lucifer," that was "...more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made." If this "serpent" is indeed, "the Devil," then the Scripture plainly tells us that this was a beast  "...which the Lord God had made."

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html

God is the cause of every evil and every good in the real universe seen and not seen!

If you want to know if the principalities, and powers of the rulers of the darkness of this world and if spiritual wickedness is real, the answer is yes....it is real.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against the flesh and blood, contending only with physical opponents, but against the despotisms, against the powers, against the MASTER SPIRITS WHO ARE THE WORLD RULERS OF THIS PRESENT DARKNESS, against THE SPIRIT FORCES OF WICKEDNESS  in the heavenly supernatural sphere.

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[carol70]

Ok.  Then the proof of the existence of witchcraft, sorcery, and the like lies in Ephesians 6:12: For we wrestle not against the flesh and blood, contending only with physical opponents, but against the despotisms, against the powers, against the MASTER SPIRITS WHO ARE THE WORLD RULERS OF THIS PRESENT DARKNESS, against THE SPIRIT FORCES OF WICKEDNESS  in the heavenly supernatural sphere.

That's all the proof I need.

HOWEVER, I stand by my earlier statement that when the Lord turned Moses' rod into a snake, it was not an act of witchcraft or sorcery, unless the definition of witchcraft means to turn sticks into serpents.  Maybe it does...  Hey, I'm still learning here.

[carol70]

Sorry, I just can't let this go. 

If the act of turning Moses' rod into a serpent, as performed by Jesus, who is the God of the Old Testament, is considered sorcery, then that would mean he committed a sin, which we KNOW can't be true!  Therefore, while there may be those out there who can perform sorcery, Jesus NEVER did!!!

[Kat]

Hi Carol,

I can understand your question about the reality of sorcery, magic, witchcraft or whatever you want to call it.
The way I see this, is powers that are used, not in the service of God.  When someone does anything by the power of God, it is for the good and is not evil.  When people try to use the forces they do not understand to have power, it is for the lust of the flesh and evil.  Certainly these powers are ultimately come from God, as He is sovereign, but He does not use them for evil as man does and it is just another means for this experience of evil.

In the account in Exodus, where Moses rod turned into a snake, the magicians preformed the same as Moses did on this and other occasions.

Exo 7:11  Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers. And they, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts.
v. 12  For each man threw down his rod, and they became snakes. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

Exo 8:7  And the magicians did so with their secret arts, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.

Something to consider did Satan have power to afflict Job?  Certainly it was given to him from God, but Satan actually did evil to Job physically.  I think he is still doing these things to people.

Job 2:6  And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life."

So couldn't this same power used to afflict Job, be worked on other people and sorcery be the means that Satan carries it out?  It is not God actually doing this evil to people, it would be people using these Satanic powers.  So if people so foolishly seek to use powers other than from God, I would think Satan is ready to oblige them.  
But I think a lot of it is not from supernatural mean, but just evil done by people.
Here is some information I found to explain what this sorcery is.

Magic - Witchcraft
The existence of the black art and its attendant practices can be traced from the time of the ancient Egyptians and Persians, from the Greeks and Hebrews, to the period when reports of black magic were most numerous, during the Middle Ages, thus forming an unbroken chain. In medieval magic may be found a degraded form of popular pagan rites—the ancient gods had become devils, their mysteries orgies, their worship sorcery.

The fraternity had grades from the pretenders, charlatans, and diviners of the common people to the various secret societies and orders of initiates, among whom were kings, queens, popes, and dignitaries of church and state. In these advanced levels, knowledge and ritual were carefully cherished and preserved in manuscripts, some of which still exist. (I think we heard about some of this in Ray's latest paper)

Witchcraft has seen a resurgence in the twentieth century with neo-pagan, Wiccan, and Dianic traditions spreading throughout the United States, Europe, South America, and Australia. Black magic is also still practiced in many traditional cultural groups around the world including the United States, where it may be seen among voodoo practitioners, brujos, and others who practice the black arts.

I'm not sure most of these use any supernatural powers at all, but they carry out some hideous crimes to pratice their black art.  Here is some of what I found.

For the actual rites the light came from candles made from the fat of corpses and fashioned in the form of a cross; the bowls were made from skulls, those of parricides being of greatest virtue;
Another potent instrument of magic was the mandragora, unearthed from beneath gallows where corpses were suspended, tied to a dog. The dog was then killed by a mortal blow, after which its soul was to pass into the fantastic root, attracting also that of the hanged man.
To make themselves invisible, it is said that sorcerers used an unguent compounded from the incinerated bodies of newborn infants mixed with the blood of nightbirds. (Occultism & Parapsychology Encyclopedia)

It's all a terrible evil that will be burned out of any that practice it.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[carol70]

Kat, that was excellent - thank you!!!

[skydreamers]

In 1Samuel 28, Saul seeks out a medium to bring up Samuel from the dead, which she does.  Now since the rest of scripture shows that the dead are sleeping in the ground, and are indeed dead, then the source of the apparition must have been of the supernatural, specifically the darker powers.  The scripture here doesn't specifically say this is sorcery or witchcraft, but to be consorting with a "familiar spirit" was just as much forbidden.  It all comes from the same dark source.   

So I think that this event in Samuel is more proof that the existence of sorcery is real, that the darker powers can be used to manifest strange things in our realm.  I wouldn't want to mess with it. 

Peace,
Diana

[Deborah-Leigh]

God uses Satan over the nations as He wills Satan to will, not as Satan himself "free wills." God uses the nations themselves to will as He wills the nations to will, not as the nations themselves "free will." If we are to believe the Scriptures rather than the heresy of men, where does Satan or any of the nations possess "free will?" LOF Part 15C

Only God can use evil for good. Can any man use evil, RANK STARK EVIL, for good?  I don't think so.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Kat]

Hi Arcturus,

As you brought out, it is Satan whom God uses by His will/purpose in this present evil age.  Mankind is so nieve in what they do, thinking they have a 'free will' in using the power of evil (magic-sorcery) for their benefit.  Jesus said that satan wanted to sift Peter like wheat (Luke 22:31), I think that is happening to a lot of people. 

1John 3:8  He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil.

Here this from Ray's no. 2 paper in LOF series.  It goes into how Satan is working in this world, I think magic and sorcery is one of man's (with satan's help) ways of going against God, as He intends them to do.

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html ------------------------------------------------------------

And so it is that neither man nor Satan can do anything contrary to the intention of God. God has a will that includes a final destiny of total perfection of His whole creation. God has set man and Satan (his very name means adversary) AGAINST HIS OWN WILL for a period of time. But during this period when everyone goes against God's will, God INTENDS them to do so. And when God no longer "intends" for there to be any more adversaries or enemies opposing Him or His will, He will remove all such opposition (See I Cor. 15:21-28). ALL OF GOD'S WILL, WILL THEN BE DONE!

You are of your FATHER the DEVIL [the GREAT DRAGON, OLD SERPENT, the DEVIL, and SATAN {Hebrew for Adversary -- I Pet. 5:8} Rev. 12:9], and the lusts of your father ye will do... He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth [from the beginning], because there is no truth in him [from the beginning]. When he speakes a lie, he speakes of his own: for he is a liar [from the beginning], and the father [the beginner] of it" (John 8:44).

"Now the SERPENT was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD GOD had MADE..." (Gen. 3:1) God "made" this serpent which TALKED with Eve as an articulate, intelligent, creature. Satan did not possess this serpent of the field, Satan was this serpent! Satan doesn't possess snakes! Satan himself was CREATED A SERPENT. Even Paul acknowledges that it was "the SERPENT" that deluded Eve, and not some other creature possessing a snake (II Cor. 11:3).

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between THY SEED and her seed, it shall bruise thy heel, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (Gen. 3:15).

This serpent that shall bruise the heel of Eve's seed (singular seed -- Christ) is clearly Satan the Devil who also has seed, "thy seed." Jesus said, "Your are of your father the Devil...?" (John 8:44). Satan the Devil has "seed"; he is a "father": a father has children and followers of like nature. No literal snake ever produced a seed that bruised the heel of Jesus. Snakes do not "eat dust" but Satan dines on mankind "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour [Greek: (lit. or fig.) gulp entirely, swallow up] I Pet. 5:. And he seeks to devour mankind who are "dust" of the earth ("...for dust thou art...." Gen. 3:19).

"By HIS SPIRIT He hath garnished the heavens; his HAND has FORMED THE CROOKED SERPENT" (Job 26:13). God garnished the heavens by His SPIRIT, because they are a thing of great glory, beauty, and splendor. But the crooked SERPENT God formed by His "hand" -- at ARMS LENGTH. Thus indicating it was something necessary, but not of His HEART AND SPIRIT! Satan is called "the crooked serpent." This word crooked comes from a Hebrew word that is not translated "crooked" anywhere else in the Bible. The word in Hebrew is bariach, and it means "a fugitive," Strong's #1281. And "fugitive" is from the Hebrew word nuwa, Strong's #5128, among its several meanings are: "to [go] up and down," and "to and fro," and to "sift." Remember that God names things according to what they are and what they do:

(A) "And the LORD [is this a high enough authority for everyone?] Said unto SATAN [not a heretofore archangel], Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, 'From going TO AND FRO in the earth, and from walking UP AND DOWN in it" (Job. 1:7 and 2:2).

It is the "crooked [fugitive] SERPENT" SATAN who goes "TO AND FRO" and "UP AND DOWN" in the earth! God created Satan for this purpose.

(B) "And the LORD said [is this a high enough authority for everyone?], Simon, Simon, behold, SATAN [not a heretofore archangel] hath desired to have you, that he may SIFT you as wheat" (Luke 22:31).

It is the "crooked [fugitive] SERPENT" SATAN who "SIFTS" men like wheat! God created Satan for this purpose.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[DuluthGA]

To Gudazdead and Sorin, to clarify my position, ALL evil is given from God.  It is real to the extent that God gives it to be real, to include witchcraft, etc., etc.  I didn't list at least 17 verses from the Word of God in my previous post regarding God and His evil if it wasn't REAL/ACTUAL/DOES EXIST per Him.  I suggest you copy and paste them and print them out and stick them somewhere where you will access them readily.

I didn't mean to make light of it by siting a children's art book that tells a picture story of how this might have come to pass in fictional terms.  [This book, easily flipped through in ten minutes is still a great tool for presenting God's sovereignty and that He WILL save all to reach those who are not ready to hear scriptures.]

But I still ain't afraid of no "ghosts" (there ain't none, period) or evil because... well, just because...  it would be really silly at my station in life... very silly.    [The One Who is in me is greater and has already conquered the world, 1John 4: 4]   

With love, Janice 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Kat

Thank you for the addition. What you say : Jesus said that satan wanted to sift Peter like wheat (Luke 22:31), I think that is happening to a lot of people.

For me it follows that Satan buffets too! If we consider the teachings from Ray's – PAULS Splinter in the flesh http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html This teaching makes it pretty real!

Janice : I found this explanation on the web that further clarifies what is real and what is not. I have taken the liberty to edit out the ideas in the text that do not align with what we understand here in BT. Also if you read the teaching through Ray on just what was the splinter in the flesh of Paul, you might reconsider your views.

From the web on familiar spirits I quote:

Question: "What are familiar spirits?"

Answer: The term familiar refers to a relational aspect of association--servitude. In the Old Testament we find that familiar spirits are mentioned more than a few times: Leviticus 19:31, 20:6, 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:9-14; 1 Samuel 28:7-9; 2 Kings 21:6, 23:24; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14; 2 Chronicles 33:6; Isaiah 8:19, 19:3, 29:4. A familiar spirit, then, is a demon who identifies itself with another person. We also see similar demon-human relationships in the New Testament: Matthew 9:32, 12:43-45, 15:22, 17:15-18; Mark 5:1-20, 9:17-26; Acts 16:16-18, 19:15-16; 1 Timothy 4:1.

In the above mentioned verses, the Bible speaks very clearly regarding familiar spirits. They are demons.....They use people to spread lies and deceit,.......... Knowingly opening oneself to the work of demons is an evil thing: "For example, never sacrifice your son or daughter as a burnt offering. And do not let your people practice fortune-telling or sorcery, or allow them to interpret omens, or engage in witchcraft, or cast spells, or function as mediums or psychics, or call forth the spirits of the dead. Anyone who does these things is an object of horror and disgust to the LORD," (Deuteronomy 18:10-12a).

Some avenues through which demons, a.k.a. "familiar spirits," are given entrance to a person's life are: divination, transcendental meditation, visualization, necromancy, witchcraft, drugs, and alcohol. These are all activities that believers are exhorted, commanded even, to avoid. Instead, we are to be filled with the Holy Spirit, with love, with joy, and with the fullness of life that comes from Jesus Christ. We are also to be on guard, "For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms," (Ephesians 6:12).


Peace to you

Arcturus

[LittleBear]

As we have seen, the scriptures do tell us that there are witches and sorcerers, and that they do have power. We are to not do that. Why?

It seems to me that this power is to exert control over people, events, the world. The particular sorcerer wants to be powerful, and exalted, and to make a great name for him/herself. He thinks of himself very highly, better than all these others who do not have this power. Then he want the praise and adulation of these lesser types. He puts himself on the throne of his life and thinks he has control over all things.  Sound familiar?

Love,

Ursula

[Deborah-Leigh]

Rodger you say:

....focusing on these idiots rather then on God

So RIGHT!...and to add:

Those who believe in duel powers at war against one another in a bid to acquire Sovereignty do not know that God is ALL MIGHTY and Sovereign and there is non beside Him.

Many are seduced to focus on the idiocy of believing that Satan wars against God and has free will but in truth it is God who instructs Satan just how far he can go and Satan obeys! Satans lunch is man not God! ...especially deceived and foolish mankind believing in the illusion of power some profess to have.

Jer17:5 Thus says the Lord: Cursed with great evil is the strong man who trusts in and relies on frail man, making weak human flesh his arm, and whose mind and heart turn aside from the Lord.

Jer 23 : 16 Thus says the Lord of hosts: DO NOT LISTEN TO THE WORDS OF FALSE PROPHETS who prophesy to you. They teach you vanity, emptiness, falsity, and futility and fill you with vain hopes....

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[joyful1]

Acturus-- I LOVE your scriptures from Jeremiah-- SOOO true!

Roger--  I want to hear about the 2 penguins who were vacationing in the Bahamas!

greetings everyone-- I'm BACK!!
joyce

[YellowStone]

that there are witches and sorcerers, and that they do have power

What a joke

lions, tigers, and bears, Oh my,,,,,,,,

All is of God.

I truthfully doubt any sorceror, witch, wizard, soothsayer, talisman, shame man,warlock, druid, spiritman, vodoo, magician, politician, evangelist, preacher, deacon, reverend,....ect  can ever express one bit of power, unless God choose these idiots, to impose a more Spiritual power to the unbeliever. ((person who is focusing on these idiots rather then on God)).

The mention of these fools in Scripture, are in FACT in parables, which  nullifies any beliefs of these fools or thier power. what a JOKE !

Hey !! Did you hear about the one were 2 penguins were vacationing in the Bahamas.....?

Rodger

Hi Rodger, Your posts are usually awesome but this one sounds a little presumptuous (my opinion only )

By whose power are these "so called" idiots conducting their lives? Are they free to act in any other way? Are they not also the work of your Fathers hand, molded perfectly according to his purpose? How then can they be idiots? By caling such as these the same, are you not faulting their steps that are not theirs to direct, and totally igoring why God has purposed their life in this way?

You speak of the nullification the belief of these "Fools" yet who is the fool? The one who is blindly following the purpose God has given them, ignorant of all truth, because the truth is not yet theirs to see, hear or understand. NOT because of their chosing, but because of God's, or the one ignoring God's spiritual purpose?

How then can they be fools, without God being foolish also, for is HE not the one who purposed such as these this way? Of course HE did, but NOT so that we can laugh at and ridcule them, nor so that we can pity them. But rather that we can with all gratitude, thank and praise God for showing us his "Spirit of Truth" of dragging us to HIM and having compassion and patience with us second to none.

Such Idiots and Fools are to teach us humility in body and spirit, and this is a lesson we should never ignore.

I hope you take this post in the spirit it was written and that is a gentle reminder that all is of God and if one is unhappy with any of it, it is God they are unhappy with.

Your in Christ our Lord,
Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

 

Darren

You state:

How then can they be fools, without God being foolish also,

WHAT? ...who said or implied such a thing? God knows evil. Does that make God evil? NO!

You continue :

for is HE not the one who purposed such as these this way? Of course HE did, but NOT so that we can laugh at and ridicule
them,

I believe you have not understood that when Rodger said "What a Joke" that he did not mean joke as in humorous but as in sarcasm and sarcasm is complimentary as it is intelligent wit!

You say Darren:
nor so that we can pity them. But rather that we can with all gratitude, thank and praise God for showing us his "Spirit of Truth" of dragging us to HIM and having compassion and patience with us second to none.

That is false Darren....what you are saying is be like the Pharisee who thanked God with many words that he was not anything like the tax collector who was beating his chest and repenting? Jesus warned against what you advocate Darren! Jesus warned us NOT TO BE grateful compared to others like the Pharisee expressed in his prayer up to God!

Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.

What Jesus did say is rejoice NOT that the spirits are subject to you Luke 10: 20  Nevertheless, do not rejoice at this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are enrolled in heaven.( they have to be subject to you FIRST...that being under your foot, heal on the serpents head so to speak and then ) rejoice rather that your names are recorded in heaven meaning that you are acting and behaving like Christ.

What you say to Rodger about all his previous posts being  compared to this one that you evaluate as presumptuous, shows great elevation in the standards of Rodgers contributions in the Forum. If in fact this post is presumptuous then your comment is a huge compliment! How so?

Presumption – bold, forward, a belief or assumption based on reasonable evidence, an inference of the truth of a fact from other facts proved, admitted, or judicially noticed.  To take as proved until contrary evidence is produced.
Ref : Collins English Dictionary.

So where is the contrary evidence Darren? (Rhetorical question.)

You say Darren :  Rodger, Your posts are usually awesome but this one sounds a little presumptuous (my opinion only  )

so add awesome which you describe Rodgers earlier posts as being, to presumptuous and that is THE WAY TO GO Rodger!!

Presumption and sarcasm are not dirty words!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Falconn003]

Very enlightening and edifying Arcturus.

In the end we will all know righteousness. til then ....serenity now!... serenity NOW !

God bless
Rodger

[Falconn003]

Joyce

A very WELCOME BACK..............................

Pray and hope everything is well with you and your loved ones.

God bless
Rodger

[YellowStone]

Darren calm down... 

and thank you for your compliment ,  but All thanks and glory be to Our Father.

God is all powerful and all knowing.((period)) WHO ? Would even consider, the need for fortune tellers, that have to ask you WHY you come to them. And cannot seem to give out the right lotto numbers....ANSWER:: only an idiot would.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie:

If God's warns us all of this lie , and yet people go seek out wizards and such....YES they are idiots.

example
WATCH OUT !!  do not put your hand in the fire. It will burn and hurt.  Huh ...you did put your hand in the fire.....does it hurt and burn.  You were warned not to.  put ice on it.  What you put your hand in the fire AGAIN.  Well now here is your SIGN !  

IDIOT: noun

One deficient in judgment and good sense: a@@, fool, imbecile, jackass, mooncalf, moron, nincompoop, ninny, nitwit, simple, simpleton, softhead, tomfool. Informal dope, gander, goose. Slang cretin, ding-dong, dip, goof, jerk, nerd, schmo, schmuck, turkey. See ability/inability.

1. A foolish or stupid person.
2. A person of profound mental retardation having a mental age below three years and generally being unable to learn connected speech or guard against common dangers.

live and learn
Rodger

Yes Roger, live and learn in God's time and not our's. I would consider myself a sad person indeed, calling the the works of God's and stupid and foolish for "being unable to learn" because it is not God's will for them to do so.

Rodger, I would ask that you first look at the beam in your own eye, before you judge so harshly the speck in another's. Do you count yourself responsible for everytruth you have ever garnered? Live and learn that all is of God and man cannot by thought or step change the course of one's life as purposed by God.

Thanks for taking my post in a positive manner,

Love in Christ,
Darren

[Falconn003]

Darren back at ya, i am a black kettle sure as your a black POT ! 

God calls the wisdom of MAN foolish and stupid, am i wrong in echoing that sentiment.

I would rather have the Spirit of God tell me, then someone proclaim there feelings were hurt.

Peace and endurance
Rodger

[ez2u]

Well alot of words said but how many people have known witches and socers.  I grew up in such an atmosphere.  Some of my biological family member for several generations practice this stuff.  They all said they were religious.  One a preacher made chairs walkin his sermons.  What i saw was a lust for power and wanting things their way.  I have alot of stories about this stuff but the main issues that I saw was yes it was real yes their seems to be a realm of the supernatural and no it does not have to do with being obedient to God's Will on one level.  Now don't everyone scream at me at once!!!  people want to do their own thing, that doesn't mean God isn't in control He is in control He allows it for a very good reason.  Sin, Evil. is just that and it does all kinds of thing s to people a catalclis ( can't spell tonight this word)  I see people practicing this on all levels and when I do it makes me feel like I need to continue to do the Will of the Father in my life no matter what.  Alot comes with this practice and it is not good.  Keeping our eyes on Jesus and what He desires from us works better.  By the way I have had to tell my family several times to back away with their witchcraft I want nothing to do with it and the demons involved and I believe this is what all Christians should do unless God is calling you to deliver some from Demon pocession.  There are things that live under rocks and little cracks in the wall, roaches, and their is things that live in the light of the day.  To me this is common sense and I kept trying to move in that direction as the Lords guides me.