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Something Important I Believe We All Need To Discuss...
Origen II:
--- Quote from: Harryfeat ---
--- Quote from: Origen II ---Well...I have a really interesting theory to propose.
However, I'm still trying to understand the nature of God in His dealing with the Israelites.
It does seem contradictory towards how Christ taught us.
--- End quote ---
Hello Origen II,
What is your theory you want to propose?
I didn't mean to turn off discussion by my post. It just seems that sometimes when you boil down things to what you believe are most important, it puts a whole different perspective on things without sometimes getting bogged down in details.
I really never understood the ruthlessness in the old testament. I usually got the idea that the Isrealites got the cocky attitude that "with God on my side I can do whatever I damn well please". It seemed to be a lesson to me more about pride and false priorities and political rules out the whazoo to keep everyone in line. A child learns fairly quickly to keep their hands out of the fire or they will get burned. Its seems to be all physical stuff, very little of the spirit.
As far as what humans do/did to humans vis a vis rape, plunder and pillaging, etc. how much better/worse is that then everyone in the world but Noah and his group being drowned like rats or the entire habitants of two cities save Lot and his group, men, women and yes babies, being showered with fire and brimestone? What's the plan?
Seriously, what is your theory?
feat
--- End quote ---
Well, first off I don't really see any "ruthelessness" in the Old Testament when looking at the Israelites. Not only does the Torah outline morality in the Israelite community and their care for other people, but the historical books in the OT expound on these events and show even more reasons as to why the Israelites did many of the things they did.
After finally researching these incidents in full (when I entered Evilbible I wasn't completely aware of these reasons, thus why I may have lost the debate overall), I have concluded that the Israelites were acting in the best interest of their survival as well as the survival of others.
While they did indeed live in a Patriarichal society..to say that they abused or disrespected women based on this culturual perspective is really grasping and doing injustice to the details.
We can get into that later, though.
My overall theory I call "The Theory of Dual Concepts". Basically it suggest that things cannot be understood completely, recognized, or even considered significant without their necessary counterparts. We cannot know "Good" without "Evil", nor can we recognize any of them without it's counterpart.
If we lived in a world where there was only happiness, and there was never such a thing as sadness or anything counter to happiness, then happiness would not exist. Happiness would merely be a feeling that is neither significant, understandable, or has any value.
The same with Good and Evil. What is Good without Evil? What is Evil without Good?
You cannot say that we can have a world with one and not the other if we never knew what both were to begin with.
Thus the perfect argument in solving the 'Problem' we call Evil.
Harryfeat:
--- Quote from: Origen II ---
My overall theory I call "The Theory of Dual Concepts". Basically it suggest that things cannot be understood completely, recognized, or even considered significant without their necessary counterparts. We cannot know "Good" without "Evil", nor can we recognize any of them without it's counterpart.
If we lived in a world where there was only happiness, and there was never such a thing as sadness or anything counter to happiness, then happiness would not exist. Happiness would merely be a feeling that is neither significant, understandable, or has any value.
The same with Good and Evil. What is Good without Evil? What is Evil without Good?
You cannot say that we can have a world with one and not the other if we never knew what both were to begin with.
Thus the perfect argument in solving the 'Problem' we call Evil.
--- End quote ---
I believe that Ray also touches on your theory as well in his writings.
Is it kind of a theory of opposites like there is no up if down doesn't exist? How does this solve a PROBLEM we call evil? There is scripture stating that God created evil. Without light there is darkness, can the same be said about good and evil? Can they exist separately?
To me, good and evil are concepts of the physical world and the carnal mind. For example, if you were in a constant state of bliss, would good/evil, light/darkness etc make any difference, be of importance or even hold any meaning.
Aside from the obvious definition as the opposite of good, can you define evil in its most basic form?
feat
Origen II:
--- Quote from: Harryfeat ---
--- Quote from: Origen II ---
My overall theory I call "The Theory of Dual Concepts". Basically it suggest that things cannot be understood completely, recognized, or even considered significant without their necessary counterparts. We cannot know "Good" without "Evil", nor can we recognize any of them without it's counterpart.
If we lived in a world where there was only happiness, and there was never such a thing as sadness or anything counter to happiness, then happiness would not exist. Happiness would merely be a feeling that is neither significant, understandable, or has any value.
The same with Good and Evil. What is Good without Evil? What is Evil without Good?
You cannot say that we can have a world with one and not the other if we never knew what both were to begin with.
Thus the perfect argument in solving the 'Problem' we call Evil.
--- End quote ---
I believe that Ray also touches on your theory as well in his writings.
Is it kind of a theory of opposites like there is no up if down doesn't exist? How does this solve a PROBLEM we call evil? There is scripture stating that God created evil. Without light there is darkness, can the same be said about good and evil? Can they exist separately?
To me, good and evil are concepts of the physical world and the carnal mind. For example, if you were in a constant state of bliss, would good/evil, light/darkness etc make any difference, be of importance or even hold any meaning.
Aside from the obvious definition as the opposite of good, can you define evil in its most basic form?
feat
--- End quote ---
Well...to tell you the truth, one of the reasons I really listened to Ray's teachings was because we both agreed on these points. Before I even came here I pondered this theory and I felt it made sense.
Also, by adopting this theory there is no longer a 'problem' of evil, but a necessity (ableit temporary).
I do not see good and evil as carnal...because God obviously knew about these things and had this knowledge before allowing Adam and Eve to know about it.
Good and Evil are concepts that are foundational for awareness and knowledge...they are not born from the carnal nature.
Harryfeat:
--- Quote from: Origen II ---
Also, by adopting this theory there is no longer a 'problem' of evil, but a necessity (ableit temporary).
I do not see good and evil as carnal...because God obviously knew about these things and had this knowledge before allowing Adam and Eve to know about it.
Good and Evil are concepts that are foundational for awareness and knowledge...they are not born from the carnal nature.
--- End quote ---
I disagree with you in that I still say that the concepts of good and evil are understood by us with our carnal minds. The existence of good and evil is part of God's plan. Our knowledge of these is at best carnal.
God's creation of evil and His knowledge of same is not something that I believe is completely comprehensible to us as humans. We cannot fathom their meaning other than through our carnal minds.
God created light. Did He create darkness or does light overcome the darkness. God created evil. Does evil relate to good in the same way as light and darkness?
I still ask the question, what is your definition of evil in its most basic form?
feat
Origen II:
--- Quote from: Harryfeat ---
--- Quote from: Origen II ---
Also, by adopting this theory there is no longer a 'problem' of evil, but a necessity (ableit temporary).
I do not see good and evil as carnal...because God obviously knew about these things and had this knowledge before allowing Adam and Eve to know about it.
Good and Evil are concepts that are foundational for awareness and knowledge...they are not born from the carnal nature.
--- End quote ---
I disagree with you in that I still say that the concepts of good and evil are understood by us with our carnal minds. The existence of good and evil is part of God's plan. Our knowledge of these is at best carnal.
God's creation of evil and His knowledge of same is not something that I believe is completely comprehensible to us as humans. We cannot fathom their meaning other than through our carnal minds.
God created light. Did He create darkness or does light overcome the darkness. God created evil. Does evil relate to good in the same way as light and darkness?
I still ask the question, what is your definition of evil in its most basic form?
feat
--- End quote ---
Destruction.
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