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Vengance is mine saith the Lord?

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Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Gregor

I am going to build on upon what you observe if simply because you give the confidence in knowing that as you say : I am in no way offended by your point of view, nor take anything you say as a personal attack, That is most mature of you so....what do you think of this....

Why would God hate, as human carnal man understands hate....something God, our BIG, larger than life GOD has CREATED? God for me USES evil to bring man and usher man into a knowledge of contrasts to know and discern between GOOD and EVIL. Not to HATE evil in a defensive, vulnerable way but in a victorious way that has overcome evil with good.

The Scriptures you bring forth are all true but do not disclose HOW we are to hate AS GOD HATES in a SOVEREIGN way which WE can not be or do EXCEPT in the Image of Christ that presents Christs Spirit that has OVERCOME THE WORLD.

The Churches do not see this subtlety that is Spiritual and neither do they teach or believe it.

God does not change and yes what the Scriptures disclose of His nature character and Spirit remains true. There is NO contention there! God does HATE evil BUT do we KNOW HOW God hates? Do we know HOW God loves.

As Joe pointed out earlier, we do not KNOW the ways of God. Only Christ knows through His Spirit and this will be our inheritance to also know God in the end....The race is still on. The work of God is still progressing humanity into the ultimate direction and purpose of this Glorious revelation. God sends His Spirit into us to begin and progress His work in us.

God says Isa 45 : 7 I for the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil. I am the Lord Who does all these things.

Does God hate what He does. No. I do not think so. All things in heaven and in earth are created for Gods purpose.  God is subject to NOTHING and NO ONE. (Emphasis caps...not shouting at you! ;D)

For me forgiveness and repentance work together to cancel the power of evil and its dominion over man. You introduced these points beautifully Gregor.


You introduce "fear of the Lord" IS to hate evil. Yes Gregor indeed the Word of God says this but what does it MEAN? Do the Churches know what it MEANS? Do they teach what it MEANS? I don't think so.

Fear of the Lord is for me that REST in the sublime knowledge, insight, comprehension and understanding that HE IS and the HE is Isa 46: 10 Declaring the end and the result from the beginning and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My Counsel shall stand, and I Will do ALL My pleasure and purpose.

Ecc 12 : 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole mater, Fear God, and keep His commandments ( Will man keep God's commandments? No. Does God Will for man to keep His commandments? Yes. ) for this is the whole of man, the full, original purpose of his creation, the object of God's providence, the root of character, the foundation of all happiness, the adjustment to all inharmonious circumstances and conditions under the sun....for EVERY MAN. Has this been accomplished yet? No. Will it be. YES! ONE DAY MAN in the Image of Christ, will be whole! See.....The WHOLE OF MAN... ALL EVERYONE will know God and God WILL BE ALL IN ALL!

Gregor...I too am blessed by this discussion and appreciate your participation.

Kat, somewhere Ray mentions that the emotions are a disturbance of the mind....I believe it may be in one of his more recent audios from Bible Study.

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)

Gregor:
Greetings Arcturus,

Perhaps we need to define some of our terms to make sure we're on the same page.

When I say "we/us" I'm referring to the spirit filled believer (living & walking in the spirit), not the carnally minded man. I believe that the spirit helps us to know and understand and discern. For without it, the carnal mind cannot understand the things of God. Perhaps we differ on the definition of spirit filled, but that would be another thread. ;)

Next, lets define "hate." The word used in all the OT examples I gave is the same word (and primarily used as a verb with an object), Strongs 8130 sane - a prim. root;to hate (personally):-enemy, foe, (be)hate(-ful, -r,), odious, X utterly.
According to Dictionary.com, hate: –verb (used with object)
1. to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest: to hate the enemy; to hate bigotry.
2. to be unwilling; dislike: I hate to do it.
–verb (used without object)
3. to feel intense dislike, or extreme aversion or hostility.
or noun
1. the emotion of intense dislike; a feeling of dislike so strong that it demands action [ant: love]
verb
1. dislike intensely; feel antipathy or aversion towards; "I hate Mexican food"; "She detests politicians" [ant: love]

Both the Strongs definition and the "carnal man's" definitions are the same, and quite simple to understand. I don't think God's definition is any different. The fact that, by His spirit, He has revealed his truths to us shows us that He does want some (the few) to understand. And we learn from His Spirit, His Word, His Son, Himself, how to be filled with that same spirit, word, and to be transformed by the renewing of our minds: Rom.12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Tit.3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

My question isn't why would God hate, but rather what does God hate? In answering the "what" we learn the "why" (a knowledge of contrasts to know and discern between GOOD and EVIL thereby gaining wisdom), that we may end up "one" with Him (God's ultimate purpose/will).

You say, "The Scriptures you bring forth are all true but do not disclose HOW we are to hate AS GOD HATES in a SOVEREIGN way which WE can not be or do EXCEPT in the Image of Christ that presents Christs Spirit that has OVERCOME THE WORLD...God does HATE evil BUT do we KNOW HOW God hates? Do we know HOW God loves."

Yes, at least I think I do dimly. The individual scriptures don't tell us HOW God hates, but the overall scriptures do revealing Jesus, revealing God - He burns up the sin in the LOF, and saves all mankind. He hates sin enough to destroy it, and loves us enough not to destroy us. It is a beautiful combination of His mercy (not giving us what we deserve), and his grace (giving us what we don't deserve).

God doesn't hate the way carnal man hates. Carnal man loves sin (our inner enemy), lusts for it and the pride of life. Carnal man focuses hate towards God and towards eachother. Carnal man uses hate in a defensive, vulnerable way. But God has shown us that his hate is directed at evil, things that are evil, certain deeds, never towards His creation. God uses the LOF for a purpose (chastisement as sons), not to hate the sinner, but to eliminate the sin and reconcile us. There's that contrast at work, exposing the carnal to reveal the spiritual. Natural is exposed first, then spiritual. We have something to compare.
 
I'm not sure if I'm missing your point (the subtlety you mentioned), or if you're missing mine, in that the emotion of hate itself is neither good nor bad, but depends on where it is directed, and for what purpose. Just like we say love your neighbor (that's good), yet we're not to love this world (that's bad). Sadly, neither our hate nor love will be perfected in us till the end. We can sample both, albeit dimly, as in a mirror. Well, that's it for now. I've got to get some sleep. I look forward to more. Till then, all the best,
G.

Robin:
Micah 7
 
9 Because I have sinned against him,
       I will bear the LORD's wrath,
       until he pleads my case
       and establishes my right.
       He will bring me out into the light;
       I will see his righteousness.

sonofone:
The purpose and intent of this post for me is to clarify God's relationship to Man. In asking the why questions,I am hoping to clarify just what is going on. I am trying to digest the position that the sovereignty of God recuses mans actions. The questions that I raise are what come up in my mind while trying to accept this position.I can only relate to God as a human being,because that is what I am. Notwithstanding,that there is a spiritual aspect to knowing God.Even in my relating to God spiritually it gets filtered through my human understanding. So when I go about the business of trying to make sense of it all I have to use reasoning and basic human concepts to understand this spiritual God. In doing so this is what I see. God creates man. In creating man he has an ultimate plan to make man in his image. In making man in his image,requires time,and a plan of action.We see the plan begin to unfold in the garden with Adam,and Eve.This for me begins the questions as to what has really happened. I believe,or rather it is my current understanding that God put in place a set of circumstances that ultimately revealed that man needed a savior. The circumstances he set up were clear. He provided the Savior,IE the tree of life,along with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Both in the middle of the garden giving man equal access to both.I think there is something to be said of this. If all God wanted to do is have Adam fail or to expose his weakness,why not just set up the circumstance for him to fail only? What God did instead was put before him two choices,or two paths and told him to choose.These are the same two choices that are constantly before us as it relates to God.One thing that is interesting to me is that no insight is given as to the nature of the tree of life in this scenario.We get detailed explanation as to the other tree,We know what will happen as a result of eating it.We hear no instruction about this tree of life and why this would be the right or best choice and what the benefit of choosing this would be. Are we to assume that Adam Knew perfectly the differences,and benefits of choosing this tree? The bible does state that he was not deceived. Would one bite of this fruit from the tree of life have given them life eternal? God does say after the fact that that if he put forth his hand and take also of the tree and eat and live forever.So as we continue we learn that the serpent who gets so much credit for the supposed fall of man is almost completely insignificant. For Eve was deceived by the serpent not Adam,I Timothy 2 vs 14 And Adam was not deceived,but the woman,being deceived,was in the transgression.Adam chose to follow his wife.And unto Adam he said because thou has hearkened unto the voice of thy wife and eaten of the tree. Eve was deceived,Adam Chose. In other words he knew better,he could have chose better,but he did not.That makes him responsible,accountable. In raising my child I do not lay to his charge things that he could do no better in.It is only after he comes into a place of learning and understanding that I hold him accountable for his choices,because an assumption or expectation of choosing properly is now in effect.There are even occasions where I set up or allow test to come before him to see what he will do,often times knowing beforehand what he will do when tested. The fact that I know what he will do ahead of time does not lessen the pending fire which is to come as result of his choice,because the expectation is that he could and should have made the correct choice.So here is where I am stuck. I believe that Adam could have chose and should have chose the tree of life.The fact that he did choose as he did brought about the penalty.This for me explains the why questions. The why is because he failed to do as he could.This is a significant belief,because it separates or makes a distinction between Adam and Man.I believe that Adam could have chose differently, I don't believe that about us or Mankind.We in and of ourselves are incapable of choosing God because of our sin nature.Adam activated this or entered into this sin nature with his choice,or choosing.I am not proposing that Adam was made perfect and then fell.I am proposing that before Adam made this choice that the gravity of sin that we know and experience,that inescapable pull away from God that Paul speaks about; Romans 5 vs 12 Wherefore,as by one man sin entered into the world,and death by sin,and so death passed upon all men,for all have sinned.vs 19 For as by one mans DISOBEDIENCE,not deception,many were made sinners.Romans 7 vs 14 Paul says that I am carnal sold under sin.vs 21 I find a law that when I would do good,evil is present with me.vs 20 says Now if I do that I would not,it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.This Gravitational pull that makes it impossible to choose God.This was not the case or excuse for Adam he did not experience this gravitational pull making it impossible for him to choose God. Adam just simply chose to be with his wife over God.No law of sin,no deception from Satan, no pride of life,lust of the eye, lust of the flesh,unless of course you consider Eve as this. He was simply without excuse.Since Adam is our father we to are without excuse. Romans 1 vs 20,His choice was our choice.His choosing brought death and incited Gods wrath and anger.And God's wrath and anger is totally and completely justified.Both in the case of Adam and us. So knowing this we repent, we repent because we were wrong, we were wrong because we chose.Nevermind the fact the sovereignty of God,this somehow clouds the fact that we are responsible. God in his sovereignty could have chose to make Adam perfect incapable of sinning,but he did not. Man is in a partnership with God and your will and choosing is essential for this partnership to work.I could go on but I think I will stop here for now to see what you guy s think

Kat:

Hi sonofone,

1Co 15:45  And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
v. 46  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
v. 47  The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
v. 48  As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
v. 49  And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man .

Adam was created out of the dust as flesh with a natural/carnal mind.  He hade the breath/spirit of physical life, but not the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Therefore he made the only decision he could make with his carnal mind, under the circumstances God put him in.  He had to choose the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, first to get knowledge.  This tree is a symbol of what we all have to choose, Adam just represents the first to make the choice, that we all will make. Because in this life we all have to go through these life experiences to learn good and evil, that is God's plan and purpose for this chuurch age. 

The tree of life is symbolic of Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 15:49  "And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man."  v. 46 says FIRST the natural/physical/carnal, that is this life experence in this age, God is giving mankind the experience of good and evil.  For a very few chosen and given the Holy Spirit (but only after they have been through this life experience of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) they are being prepared ahead of the rest to become spiritual minded.  They are given of the tree of Life, Jesus Christ. 

I just thought I would give you my understanding on this point of your post. 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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