> General Discussions
Only the elect are raised spiritual
Kat:
Hi Beau,
Ray has made the comment in an email that the wick with be raised with a physical body to face judgment.
I think the judgment will be such that they will have to learn to live righteous lives, while still physical first, before going on the receive a spiritual glorified body.
Isa 26:9 With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Here is the email.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5547.0.html -------
COMMENT: Actually I have NEVER written about "the second death" as yet, and I have never said that when someone dies that they, "are no more." When a person dies they are not conscious, and their body decays, and their spirit returns to God, but there is no consciousness IN THE SPIRIT. It is the spirit that gives LIFE TO THE BODY, and so without a living body, there is no consciousness. Jesus will save them by bringing them back to life through RESURRECTION. The righteous believers will be resurrected with glorified spiritual bodies, and the wicked unbelievers with physical bodies to face Judgment. It is in Judgment that the wicked will be ultimately saved.
------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: UncleBeau on November 14, 2007, 11:47:14 AM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on September 26, 2007, 03:28:06 PM ---
Paul states this;
Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
We know those that are with Christ are the 'overcomers' those that are called, chosen and faithful to the end.
Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
So those raised in the likeness of Christ's resurrection are those that are with Him. How was Christ raised? A spiritual body. How do we know? well we know that He appeared in many different forms which would only be possible had He been a spiritual being ABLE TO take any form He pleases, even the one of His body that had been crucified.
--- End quote ---
Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Notice this doesn't give a location. This tells how we shall be, correct?
How was He raised a spiritual body? I thought spirit couldn't be seen. I realize:
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
When? Notice this:
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
I may be on the wrong track, but as far as the resurrection of the dead, this says:
1 Corinthians 15:35-36
35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
Either way, this doesn't seem to separate any people from all being resurrected differently at the resurrection. Actually, it proves that people MUST die in order to be resurrected. We know some are appointed to life when others are appointed to chastisement, but if they were resurrected in physical bodies, would they not need to be punished in physical fire like most Christian Doctrine suggests?
your friend,
-Beau
--- End quote ---
Hello beau, thank you for your reply.
Spirit is invisible you are correct. Yet spirit is powerful and invisible like the wind. Spirit can take my forms. God who is spirit, appeared as a burning bush in the old testement to moses, he appeared as a pillar of fire in the night sky. He has appeared in many forms, and this time, Christ took His spiritual body and used that power to make Himself visible to those around Him, for there benefit. He was not ressurected in the carnal fleshy body that He died in, but rather a spiritual body that could take whatever form He pleased.
I also disagree with your last statement as well, because i live in a physical body right now, and am being judged and being baptized in fire but that doesn't mean God is literaly sticking me in a fire pit of some sort to teach me lessons, or that He is raining down physical fire and brimstone upon my head to teach me. That sounds almost rediculous. Of what good would it be to physicaly harm us?
But you see, God is like fire in certain ways. His judgements are likened to fire because of what fire can do, and not because he will actualy use literal fire.
Not sure if that helps you at all.
God bless,
Alex
UncleBeau:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on November 15, 2007, 02:10:36 PM ---
--- Quote from: UncleBeau on November 14, 2007, 11:47:14 AM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on September 26, 2007, 03:28:06 PM ---
Paul states this;
Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
We know those that are with Christ are the 'overcomers' those that are called, chosen and faithful to the end.
Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
So those raised in the likeness of Christ's resurrection are those that are with Him. How was Christ raised? A spiritual body. How do we know? well we know that He appeared in many different forms which would only be possible had He been a spiritual being ABLE TO take any form He pleases, even the one of His body that had been crucified.
--- End quote ---
Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Notice this doesn't give a location. This tells how we shall be, correct?
How was He raised a spiritual body? I thought spirit couldn't be seen. I realize:
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
When? Notice this:
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
I may be on the wrong track, but as far as the resurrection of the dead, this says:
1 Corinthians 15:35-36
35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
Either way, this doesn't seem to separate any people from all being resurrected differently at the resurrection. Actually, it proves that people MUST die in order to be resurrected. We know some are appointed to life when others are appointed to chastisement, but if they were resurrected in physical bodies, would they not need to be punished in physical fire like most Christian Doctrine suggests?
your friend,
-Beau
--- End quote ---
Hello beau, thank you for your reply.
Spirit is invisible you are correct. Yet spirit is powerful and invisible like the wind. Spirit can take my forms. God who is spirit, appeared as a burning bush in the old testement to moses, he appeared as a pillar of fire in the night sky. He has appeared in many forms, and this time, Christ took His spiritual body and used that power to make Himself visible to those around Him, for there benefit. He was not ressurected in the carnal fleshy body that He died in, but rather a spiritual body that could take whatever form He pleased.
I also disagree with your last statement as well, because i live in a physical body right now, and am being judged and being baptized in fire but that doesn't mean God is literaly sticking me in a fire pit of some sort to teach me lessons, or that He is raining down physical fire and brimstone upon my head to teach me. That sounds almost rediculous. Of what good would it be to physicaly harm us?
But you see, God is like fire in certain ways. His judgements are likened to fire because of what fire can do, and not because he will actualy use literal fire.
Not sure if that helps you at all.
God bless,
Alex
--- End quote ---
I understand what fire represents. I want to know WHY anyone would need physical bodies and WHERE the scripture is to support the idea.
you say:
--- Quote ---Christ took His spiritual body and used that power to make Himself visible to those around Him, for there benefit. He was not ressurected in the carnal fleshy body that He died in, but rather a spiritual body that could take whatever form He pleased.
--- End quote ---
Jesus said:
Luke 24
37)But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 )And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39)Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40)And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41)And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42)And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43)And he took it, and did eat before them.
your friend,
-Beau
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: UncleBeau on November 15, 2007, 02:29:56 PM ---
I understand what fire represents. I want to know WHY anyone would need physical bodies and WHERE the scripture is to support the idea.
--- End quote ---
Hi Beau,
I am not sure the scripture is there that definitively states the type of body that will be raised, but in either case the fire is not literal, physical fire, it is a spiritual purifying process.
We know that everything Christ says or does has an incredible depth of meaning(s), often many layers deep, what do you suppose might be the reason for the dead being raised in His and the apostle's days. We know that these miracles showed the power given to Him from the Father, but what else? Was this also a shadow/type of the future raising of those who have yet to be spiritually saved, purified?
This was my response to Alex when he originally posted this topic;
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on September 26, 2007, 04:24:52 PM ---You bring up an interesting topic Alex.
I have given thought to this from time to time and have yet to come up with a definitive answer, but I believe that perhaps a clue (type/shadow?) to this may be in the resurrection of those (such as Lazarus) who were raised from the dead during Christ's earthly ministry and also those raised by the apostles.
We know they were not raised in spiritual bodies and we know they were not raised immortal or perfect, they were just not dead anymore. We can safely assume they continued to sin, have trials, problems, tears, even judgment.
There is so much depth to the Scriptures and usually we can find multiple lessons in the verses contained within it. So maybe there is more to be gleened from these resurrections than an awesome display of the power of God grabbing the attention of those who witnessed them.
--- End quote ---
I have thought this may be a clue as to the condition of those raised but not "changed" still in a carnal condition not yet converted. Those who were raised at that time may possibly have been chosen to be of the elect and converted after Pentecost (no one was before), then, as every other overcomer at His return will then receive their spiritual bodies.
Anyway, that is my present understanding.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
Kat:
Hi Beau,
When Jesus manifested Himself to the Disciples, He would come to them in an actual physical human body, because you can not see spirit. In Luke 24 Jesus explains this in verse 39 "...for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have." So if He was in Spirit form, they would not have been able to see Him, right.
The scripiture that states anyone is raised spirit is in I Cor 15, where Paul is talking to the believers about being raised in the first resurrection to immortality.
Here is the white throne judgment - the resurrection of the dead, nothing about being raised to spiritual immortality here.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
v.12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
v.13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
v.14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
v.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
This is also the judgment in Revelation, it says that it will be on the earth, which is the dwelling place for physical humans. As heaven is the dwelling place for spirit beings.
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people,
v.7 saying with a great voice, Fear God and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come.
This is how I see it, hope it will help :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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