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Finished?
Robin:
This scripture jumped out at me.
"…and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the Living and True God; And to wait for His Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" (I Thes. 1:9b-10).
Darren's post really hits home with me. I have 10 pages of typed scripture that relate to those Darren posted. These are the scriptures that showed me that I am the beast and there is no hope within myself. There is no free will that will save me from my condition. There is no way to save myself. Once I hit that point God started removing idols. When the idols were removed the sin that entangled me with each idol was removed. I had a multitude of idols.
2 Corinthians 10:5
5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
1 Peter 1
14As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
Hebrews 10
13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Philippians 3:12
[Pressing on Toward the Goal ] Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
YellowStone:
--- Quote from: Arcturus on October 23, 2007, 01:05:18 PM ---Hello Darren
Thank you for your contribution. It is precisely this kind of communication that spurs me to greater precision in my thinking and deeper desire to understand Jesus Christ and the Word of God.
Your post made me return to the fact that the Image of God is not yet complete in us. If we sin no more and are delivered out of delusion, seeing partially as in a glass mirror dimly as Peggy contributed in another thread of mine, then, Darren, how can we be born again while yet in this life. Okay I see the point you make about us having the deposit of the Holy Spirit of Christ that is working in some of us yet how can we be certain who is who except by the fruit and even then can we be sure because as it is written only God can see the heart.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
--- End quote ---
Hi Arcturus,
Thank you so much for your comments. I am still with you okay, but you ask: "Darren, how can we be born again while yet in this life"
The Spirit is leading me in this, yet I am not sure where it is I will end. (I know what John meant) :)
One would appear that the phrase "Born Again" requires several things to have occured.
1. Having been once born
2. Having died
3. Being born again.
We were all born of the flesh, this is a given; however, the remaining two points seem to be addressed by both John and Paul.
How can we die, but yet still live?
I believe Paul answers this very clearly with his following words:
Rom 6:2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Here Paul very clearly states that "we" have died to sin. Death, this is thre requirement of the second clause. But how did we die?
Rom 6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Well Paul links this to baptism in Christ, not only in his life, but also his death.
Rom 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
So when Christ died and was buried, our old self died and was buried with him. But did our old self die?
Rom 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
According to Paul, our old self did die. I think Pauls next words whole the key. Our old self died, but it was raised with Christ on HIS ressurection. Paul continues on with.....
Rom 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin–
Our Old Self was crucified with Christ, so that we should no longer be slaves to sin, the body of sin is gone. Please know that his is news to me. That the body of sin is done away with NOW. It must be, else Christ died for nothing. :(
Rom 6:7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.[/color][/i]
We are freed from sin and are no longer slaves to it or the law.
Rom 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
I believe this answers part one of your question of how one can die, but yet still live. :)
How can we die, but yet still live?
So if our Old self died with Christ, what then was made anew?
Paul helps us gain understanding with the following:
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
There are two parts here: "Used to be slaves," can only me prior to Christs death. "You wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted." must mean after the granting of the Spirit, which followed the ressurection of Christ.
Christ was raised as a Spirit, although we cannot state the same, does not the Spirit live in us? And as such, are we not slaves to God and not to sin? (Rom 6:18)
1 John 3:2
2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
John makes it very clear that he was not always a child of God. What happened? Could it be that with the deat and resuurection of Christ and the coming of the Spirit, that John fully realized that his old self was dead, and now with the Spirit his life as a child of God had begun. A new life.
I find this interesting, as I know once God began opening my eyes with his Spirit, I became a new person almost everything within me changed. I think many will relate to this.
John concludes this discussion with the following:
1 John 3:24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
Was not a NEW life given us? (Rom 6:4)
My question to anyone reading this, is: Do you consider yourself the same person still, after having your eyes, ears and hearts opened by the Spirit.
In some sense, I would hope all here have been born again (made anew) in the Spirit.
1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
Please know I am not teaching or suggesting anything, I am just sharing what has been given me. I will gladly stand corrected. Arcturus, I hope I have given sufficient Scriptural backing to satisfactorily answer your question.
Let me add also, that I believe (at least) I am still yet a babe in the truth, and have much learning and growing before any would call me mature. But praise be to God for all that he has given me.
Love to you in Christ,
Darren
Deborah-Leigh:
Joe thank you for your post. It is not without merit and serves a most stabilizing reminder. Thank you.
MG your post is inspiring. Thank you.
As I see it now, Moses, Abraham, Job and Isaiah who encountered Christ did not receive the conception of Christs Spirit within them. The Spirit of Christ may have guided them, spoken to them and influenced them but was not yet IN THEM as a conception. Jesus Christ had not yet been born as the second Man and He had not died nor was yet resurrected from where His Spirit the Paraclete is the conception of His Spirit given to those chosen by God to receive His Promises.
If I look again at Ray's teaching:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html
So there are four things that happen with sin:
1. Committed
2. Remitted
3. Repented
4. Removed
I see this as being that the sin is not removed unless the Spirit is conceived and born again through stage 1,2 and 3 and finally upon resurrection at point 4. for those so chosen. In this process we come to experience and know to distinguish between good and evil. Gen 3 : 22
Can we say that the removal of sin as identified in point number 4. of Ray's teaching is the process of judgement NOW on the House of God or at the LOF?
This Thread has helped me to better articulate what I need to know. Thank you all.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Beloved:
This a very thought provoking thread.
Arcturus I really like your metaphor "Womb Wobble" Every time I examine a pregnant patient now and feel fetal movement, I am going to hear those words.
The way I understand it is that the "earnest" that we have is better than the "promise" the OT had.
Ray so rightly pointed out , gennao means both to be born into the world and to be conceived. In human reproduction this is a very complicated process as one progresses from the twinkle in the eye to the actual birth of the baby so it must be likewise in the spiritual .
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever
I agree I do not think that this speaking of today, but I believe it is future…those elect who will finally be manifested/born…who run the race and endure until the end…in these the seed indeed remains….
here are some other translations of this one verse
(1Jo 3:9 CLV) Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God." The verb tense are better here
(1Jo 3:9 KJV+) Whosoever3956 is born1080 of1537 God2316 doth not3756 commit4160 sin;266 for3754 his848 seed4690 remaineth3306 in1722 him:846 and2532 he cannot1410, 3756 sin,264 because3754 he is born1080 of1537 God.2316
I do not think these translation got it..if you look at the word cannot ( it has two word parts) it is not exatly "cannot sin" but it he is "not capapable or has the power to sin".
G1410 δύναμαι dunamai
Thayer Definition:
1) to be able, have power whether by virtue of one’s own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
2) to be able to do something
3) to be capable, strong and powerful
Part of Speech: verb
I do not know if this is true for you ....but a soon as I do any thing that is out of line with the Word….I am instantly and totally cognizant of it and ready to repent.
I usually start to bang my head on the wall and then I get disgusted that I still cannot control myself and then finally I have to totally lean into our Savior Jesus Christ and readily repent. Only then am I able to regain my composure again.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
There is no “Born again” phrase in the bible but the above verse looks like it implies one. Most see the water as the earthly birth then the spiritual birth. Or does it ?. Those chosen must go through judgement while here in the flesh. Is the born of water the baptism in death that Paul talks about.
Being born is naturally tied into the other side of life, a sort of womb to tomb thing. Most christians like the concept of being born but that abhor the reality and meaning of the Cross. Paul had a lot to say about this
(1Co 15:31 KJVR) I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily
Why did Paul say he had to die daily? In the flesh…sin can occur..hence the wages…death. By dying daily we offer ourselves as sacrifices too…and follow the example of Christ.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me
Is 1John talking about the rebirth progession when he says
(1Jo 2:1 KJVR) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(1Jo 2:2 KJVR) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Is he talking to the babes in Christ and the unsaved who first receive the word.
(1Jo 2:12 KJVR) I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
Then he goes on to others in the audience and the order of these statements has always puzzled me.
(1Jo 2:13 KJVR) I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. Are these maturing Christians, they knew Christ and have stayed the course?
I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. Are these the ones who are early in their walk
I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
(1Jo 2:14 KJVR) I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
Then later John finally writes
(1 Jo 3:14 KJVR) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world
Love therefore is the litmus test of maturity,
Beloved
GODSown1:
Praise! GOD Darren,
Amen! brother, wot U hav said & hav xsplained Very well az 2 da 'T' ;D ;) is so Awesum!!, & it really Opened my eyes & ears. Thank YOU FATHER, & Thank U brother 4 bein dis GOD given Vessel, if I may say, I understood d@ Wholeheartedly!!, GODBLESS!!.
Darren asks: My question to anyone reading this, is: Do you consider yourself the same person still, after having your eyes, ears and hearts opened by the Spirit.
In some sense, I would hope all here have been born again (made anew) in the Spirit.
Wow!! I believe I can Honestly! answer YES!!! I have so changed! (made anew!) Bigtime! :), Considering da 39 years of my Life b4 my eyes & ears being Opened 2 Y im on dis GOD Created Earth, (Believe me, wot a turn around) I am now 42yrs old, & believe me az most of da pple of my Past dont or more really cant ;D, "I so LOVE THE LORD our GOD!", Thanks again brother..
I jus wanna give Thanks 2 U 2 Arcturus 4 dis Thread, coz thru all d@ had been said & answered, bort an Awesum! Revelation 2 me!..
Amen..
muchLOVE!! Pera
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