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Faith without works is Dead

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indianabob:
Gregor and folks,

You have come upon a really tough subject and I respect your concerns.

I don't have an answer and am just thinking about all that I have just read from other members.
You may recall that I take turns leading a Bible study in the small group that I attend.
So far they have not responded to anything I have shared.  They will pay attention, answer the questions and say thank you for the great study, but the topic doesn't come up again.  Their interest is limited to doing their duty by attending services, singing hymns of praise and praying for the sick.  I'm not judging, but it seems like routine.

I have been tempted to invite myself over to their homes to share tea and cookies in the evening and discuss these things but I don't want to appear that I am "teaching with authority" in my own mind.  The thing is that these folks invited me to attend with them, they know that I don't observe pagan holidays as they do for Christmas and Halloween, but they don't have enough members to be choosy.  It's a tough call and I'm looking for a polite way out.  I thought I could help with my better knowledge, but it comes across as a superior attitude.  I thought it was just my attitude, but even that doesn't explain the rut they are in.  They don't have Bible knowledge, they have traditions, some of which may be correct (rejecting the trinity), but that doesn't change the fact that it is tradition based.

Regarding the gift of support that your family needed and sincerely appreciates. Our local Lions Club would have done the same for you.  They have about $4,000.00 a year that they distribute to local needy people.  All you have to do is ask one of the members and the club checks the facts, votes on the amount and writes a check. They don't do it for religious reasons, they do it because they are Lions.

Our local Township Trustee has available about $10,000.00 that can be given or loaned to needy in the Township population of about 3,000.  They request that it be repaid if possible.  There are many other charitable organizations that are not religious and ask for nothing in return.  Some organizations give in order to receive later.  My point here is that the gift you received does not demonstrate that the giver was of God.  It is just as likely that the members had a desire to help regardless of their personal faith or of God's inspiration.  Lots of nice people were raised by their parents to be gracious and it is part of their make up or culture regardless of Bible knowledge or Christian faith.

Please keep in mind that people usually don't reject you until they are afraid of you.  They may fear you because of concern for their children.  That you or your children may lead their children into error and that their children may leave the family church.  They may fear you, once they know all that you believe, out of concern for the "immortal souls" of their children or themselves.  You won't know until you confront them.

I realize that it is hard to confront nice people with information that confuses and threatens them.  Let's face it, the things we believe are a threat to peace and safety of the average church member.  If we are right, then their spouses or parents or close friends are wrong.  Who can tolerate that revelation?  Many of us here on the forum are having difficulty with it in our own relationships.

When God calls us out, it is all the way out.  Yet God is very patient and knows our frame and our limitations.  There is no hurry for you to leave as far as I understand God's character.  However, as in most situations of this type the longer you delay the more it will hurt when you finally take definite steps to leave.

You should of course move deliberately and with good counsel not rushing into situations that you have not prayed and meditated upon.  However, in my opinion, you will eventually have to devise a plan to separate yourself and then begin to carry it out.  Take all the time you need to make the changes, but don't let financial need guide your conduct.  There should be many other places to apply for financial aid and God will help you in those areas just as much or more than He would through church organizations that require your participation in their rituals.

Please forgive the brevity of my comments as I wrote this hurriedly.

Much love and BIG hugs, Bob

Chris R:

--- Quote from: Gregor on October 26, 2007, 08:18:46 AM ---Greetings,

." As far as this issue with the many vs. the few, John 14:2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Throughout the gospels it talks of how "many" Jews heard and believed. It talks how "many" in the crowds believed after hearing Jesus speak. Over and over again it says this. Or do we just ignore those scriptures? Perhaps only "few" will be the elect, but isn't it God who does the electing?

--- End quote ---

Hi Greg,

Sure i understand what your trying to say, It's a honest question.

But are you seriously saying that God has a HOUSE?....and inside of this HOUSE there are many more houses?

Obviously this is a metaphor for a dwelling, And where will we dwell, ALL of us..?

 1Cr 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

As for those who believed, two verses come to mind...

James 2:9 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.  From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Jhn 6:63-66 

So yes, Many are called, but few are chosen.

As for the poor, Christ left us with these words.... Mar 14:7  For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

Yes we have always had poverty and poor, those less fortunate than ourselves, We also have internet, TV, electric, heat, cars, food, a place to live, And there are millions with much less.

We all get in a tight spot, and i understand we all can use a helping hand, All I'm saying is there is a cost involved, and if its a difference between starving or adhering to doctrines of hells fire, and torture to billions of souls....its gonna be a long winter, going back and forth to the soup kitchen....but that's just me.

You wanted a opinion...and that's what i have given.

Peace

Chris R

Deborah-Leigh:
Gregor

If you think I was assuming anything and more particularly assuming that YOU bow to heresy and blasphemy, I was not and neither did I accuse or judge you.

I believe that it is not pompous or false assumption to point out that Babylon bows to heresy and blasphemy. This fact is very well carried forward through the teachings and revelations we have through Ray. But how many quote Ray here on this Forum? Few! Those who do bring forward Ray's revelations assist discernment and recognition and acquaintance with the Truth.

It is refutation of arguments and theories and reasonings and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up against the true knowledge of God that contrasts Babylons stupid foolish controversies, genealogies and dissensions and wrangling divisions perversions and corruptions.

From http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm quoting Ray:

From "Therefore speak I to them in parables, because they seeing, see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah… for this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should BE CONVERTED, AND I SHOULD HEAL [SAVE] THEM" (Verses 13-15).
Wow! Jesus didn’t want them to understand and He didn’t want to convert them and He didn’t want to save them. How could Isaiah’s prophecy be true if Jesus were to contradict it by teaching them plainly so that they could understand and repent? Now, that’s what Jesus said, and that’s what Isaiah said, but there’s a problem:
"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah said, Lord, who has believed our report?" (Rom. 10:16).
Yes, who? Have you believed this report I have just given you? It is almost frightening how few truly believe God’s Scriptural reports. Hence, precious few believe and understand the Scriptures, and fewer yet, obey them.


Matt your refutation of the errors being taught to your wife I see as a kind of spiritual training which for me can only be spiritually profitable as you exercise your discernment and practise the authority of the Word of God.  No one can make anyone accept Christ. After all, it is God Almighty that DRAGS us to His Son. What can puny man do except it be given to him to refute, exhort and encourage. So I encourage you to carry on in good spirit and spiritual training.

·   1 Cor 14 : 3 But the one who prophesies, who interprets the Divine Will and purpose in inspired preaching and teaching (what is the Divine Will. How does the Plan of God unfold.  Both questions are thoroughly covered by Ray Smiths teachings )speaks to men for their up building and constructive spiritual progress and encouragement and consolation.

Indianabob what stood out for me in your post is quote : Let's face it, the things we believe are a threat to peace and safety of the average church member.  If we are right, then their spouses or parents or close friends are wrong.  Who can tolerate that revelation?  Many of us here on the forum are having difficulty with it in our own relationships.

The fierce hooves of bestial Babylon's final kick hurt me the most. The definitive rejection with no going back was terrifying. Not even after it had happened did I accept it was the plan of God for me to draw me out. It hurt deeply. My comfort and healing I certainly received here afterwards and I believe this too is what terrifies some about coming out of Babylon because it is painful, lonely and no walk in the rose garden!

Was it worth being dragged by God to His Son. You bet it is and this is the wonderful part that once set free you are fee of the torment, rejection and suffering and begin to see that it is them who are suffering, under illusion and in pain. Then the temptation to pride comes and that has to be overcome because all have fallen short of the Glory. We do not have to reject anyone or judge anyone any longer because freedom is free from legal restraints, fear and attachments to comparisons and innuendo.   

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

rjsurfs:
Arcturus said:

--- Quote ---But how many quote Ray here on this Forum? Few!
--- End quote ---

AMEN !!!

I have searched this morning (but could not find) a quote from either Ray or someone who had been around for awhile... that recommended every paper of Ray's be read and studied at least three times through to begin to get an understanding.  When you read the emails from Ray section you see him asked those he is replying to over and over... "Did you actually read my paper?"

This topic is thoroughly covered in the Lake of Fire Series.  If you don't believe it why would anyone post their opposing views here?  If you haven't even read it, why would you be posting here?  If you've read it and oppose it, bring it up to Ray or don't post.  Why?  Because this is a place for people of like-mind.

If you haven't read Ray's papers thoroughly... how do you even know you are of like-mind?

From the forum rules:

--- Quote ---This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.

If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.

If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.

THIS FORUM IS NOT TO BE USED TO DEBATE RELIGIOUS TOPICS
--- End quote ---

I don't mean to pick on this particular thread alone... I agree with Arcturus:

--- Quote ---It is refutation of arguments and theories and reasonings and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up against the true knowledge of God that contrasts Babylons stupid foolish controversies, genealogies and dissensions and wrangling divisions perversions and corruptions.
--- End quote ---

This is not a place for conjecture, what-if, or conspiracy theories... again not meaing to point my finger at this thread alone.

Bobby

hillsbororiver:
Jer 7:30  For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
 
Jer 7:31  And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.


I have found it to be an interesting phenomena that people can hear the Word of God and appear to receive the real Gospel that proclaims the Love He has for ALL humanity and the ultimate triumph of Christ in saving His creation yet feel compelled to defend the same church(es) that teaches Christ and the Father are weak willed, callous, vindictive, cruel, torturous and hypocritical.

How many would defend any institution that spead that same kind of misinformation about one of their loved ones (wife, husband, child, parent, etc.)? Would they be so tolerant?

The following are Christ's Words, not Ray's or mine;

Mat 15:7  Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
 
Mat 15:8  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
 
Mat 15:9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mar 7:8  For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
 
Mar 7:9  And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Paul's (through Christ's Spirit) words, not Ray's or mine;

Gal 1:9  As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 
Gal 1:10  For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant ofChrist.

Let us not concern ourselves with what others think of us whether it be in the churches, in this world or in this Forum, seek the Wisdom that only God can provide and the approval of the only One who truly matters, if we do this everything else will be taken care of.

I know from personal experience this is much easier said than done, I have stumbled in this regard more than a few times.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

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