> General Discussions
Faith without works is Dead
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Bobby Proctor on October 27, 2007, 01:13:31 AM ---Arcturus said:
--- Quote ---But how many quote Ray here on this Forum? Few!
--- End quote ---
AMEN !!!
I have searched this morning (but could not find) a quote from either Ray or someone who had been around for awhile... that recommended every paper of Ray's be read and studied at least three times through to begin to get an understanding. When you read the emails from Ray section you see him asked those he is replying to over and over... "Did you actually read my paper?"
This topic is thoroughly covered in the Lake of Fire Series. If you don't believe it why would anyone post their opposing views here? If you haven't even read it, why would you be posting here? If you've read it and oppose it, bring it up to Ray or don't post. Why? Because this is a place for people of like-mind.
If you haven't read Ray's papers thoroughly... how do you even know you are of like-mind?
From the forum rules:
--- Quote ---This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.
If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.
If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.
THIS FORUM IS NOT TO BE USED TO DEBATE RELIGIOUS TOPICS
--- End quote ---
I don't mean to pick on this particular thread alone... I agree with Arcturus:
--- Quote ---It is refutation of arguments and theories and reasonings and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up against the true knowledge of God that contrasts Babylons stupid foolish controversies, genealogies and dissensions and wrangling divisions perversions and corruptions.
--- End quote ---
This is not a place for conjecture, what-if, or conspiracy theories... again not meaing to point my finger at this thread alone.
Bobby
--- End quote ---
Excellent!
Very well stated Bobby (and by extension Arcturus).
Thank you,
Joe
Beloved:
Hi greg
This is your quote but I broke it into readable paragraphs…because that is the way I think.
Issue One
It seems to me that differences in doctrine are not always reason enough to completely disown other believers. In fact, I would think this might just bring judgement on me.
Is it wrong to agree to disagree on the differences in interpretation so long as they don't take away from Christ's redemptive act of salvation?
It seems with Christianity that there are differences in doctrine as extreme as the east is from the west - from preterism, presentism, futurism, universalism, calvanism, armenianism, etc. etc. "isms."
Issue Two
I ask all this because recently my family has fallen on extremely hard times financially and if not for the generosity of our church, we would be literally starving. We were blessed (I see it as a blessing from God) with $500 worth of grocery vouchers from this church.
I don't know if anyone here, or even Ray for that matter, would be willing to help us in this practical "work" of love. Does this forum support one another in a practical manner, other than with words?
If I "come out" of Babylon, as Ray teaches, where does that leave me in a practical, everyday sense of the word? How are we here at BT truly showing our faith by our works? I don't ask this in a condemning manner, but in sincerity of heart.
If we are to "come out" of Babylon, how are we taking care of one another practically? In all truth, I would be left alone here with my family and no support.
God provided, perhaps he just used the devil to foot the bill?? I say that rather loosely, as I don't view differences in doctrine equating to complete heresy. The heart of the people (church) was/is loving enought to reach out to me and my family in a real, practical way in our time of need.
For that I'm grateful to God. Is there anything like this here at the BT forum, a fund to help each other in time of need?
G.
I want to address the first issue first because it is the more important of the two. I will address the second issue later.
I just want to remind you that is was Jesus Himself who said
Mat 16: upon this rock I will build MY CHURCH.
(Joh 16:7 KJVR) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
That means when Christ dwells with you , you become a lively stone that is built on Him the Rock. You are a member of His Body. We were explicity told to Follow HIM.
When Peter died and no longer fed the early flock , we were not left alone …..we were left with the abiding presence of the Lord Jesus who is the Shepard and Overseer of your soul who leads protects and feeds those who follow His Voice.
Feeding on the Living Bread of Christ we who eat never hunger, we do not need priestly mediators to parsel out crumbs
It is Christ the Servant who washes our feet daily and cleanses away the worldly defilement on our walk in this world. We do not need councils or creeds or pronouncement of men to shed light on our paths…Jesus is our only Light
We have Christ and He is sufficient for all things needful for the life of His people. He is our Pattern every other system or standard that has come from man corrupts His own.
The history of mankind is replete with stories of this corruption. Shorlty after Jerusalem fell the priest and levitical system was replaced by presbster and bishops the brethren became known as the “Laity”.
The brethren relinquished their responsibilities and previlidges to these wolves in sheep clothing that all the writers of the gospel warned us about. Christ tells quite specifically that He hates these Nicolations.
From the Rome came Catholicism of Corruption which through the ages was challenged by brave individual and eventually it did lead to reformation and its ultimate division into 2000 or more denominations and this even continues today….and ….. the sheep are still cooped up in these crystal cathedrals listening to men as they play toward our carnality.
We like being taught by them because it is easier that dividing the word for ourselves, we like the entertainment they call worship especially today because it is so worldly. We like paying other subordinate individuals to go out and do the dirty work in the world so we can stay home safe and feel satisfied that we ourselves have done good. We like giving because we like getting back in superabundance.
This is why we leave Babylon…to reclaim our life with Christ.
He sent his disciples out into the world in groups of two…it is the same today, each one of us who has the spirit within has this second witness.
Yes it may at first appear lonely in the physical
(Phi 4:19 KJVR) But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
(Phi 4:20 KJVR) Now unto God and our Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.
(Phi 4:21 KJVR) Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.
I will address the second issue later and in the meantime anyone else can if they chose to do so.
Beloved
dessa:
Joe, thank you for these words.
--- Quote ---Let us not concern ourselves with what others think of us whether it be in the churches, in this world or in this Forum, seek the Wisdom that only God can provide and the approval of the only One who truly matters, if we do this everything else will be taken care of.
--- End quote ---
Shalom,
dessa
musicman:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on October 26, 2007, 07:30:36 AM ---
--- Quote from: ciy on October 26, 2007, 04:14:29 AM ---I agree Bradigans and Chris.
I believe one should have an even stronger warning because it is the synagogue of satan. Yes God is causing all but be aware of the fact that it is not good encouragement to encourage one another to stay in Bablyon or go back to Egypt. God is a jealous God.
The worship of a god that is going to burn people in hell throughout infinity is the worship of the god of this world. Another Jesus, not the God of the bible.
One is still in the flesh and commit sins daily, but one should not encourage their brothers that it is ok to continue in sin. One should fight the good fight daily and continue to fill up on the word so as to be transformed from the inside out.
No harm in past stumbles focus on the future to clean out the inside of the cup and have Christ in you.
CIY
--- End quote ---
CIY, i agree completely.
Earlier i was having a hard time because some here seem to be telling me that those who teach this Christ who will torture people forever are my 'brothers and sisters' yet Christ called those who believe on Him of the devil. How can those that believe on the devil and preach this discusting pagan doctrine be my brothers and sisters? I still struggle with this as times, but i think it see it more clearly now.
Satan is very decietful, subtle as genesis tells us! I sitll have a hard time calling those who preach this Christ my brothers and sisters, it doesn't sit well with the spirit inside me, perhaps i need more prayer, this i will always do Lord willing.
As ray has written, i do believe that the christian church of today, babylon, is where the throne of satan resides.
Brothers and sisters in there? Only God knows who is His, but since i do not know who among them is my brother and sister, i am very weary and careful to call them that.
God bless all and if i am misguided, someone please correct me! I'm always wanting to listen and learn more.
With love,
Alex
--- End quote ---
Those that teach wicked doctrines cannot be considered our brothers and sisters. We are told not to fellowship with non-believers. Therefore, they cannot be considered our brothers and sisters. I recall one particular e-mail where Ray's closing remarks to a heretic was, "We will be brothers, but we are not brothers yet".
Bradigans:
--- Quote from: Gregor on October 26, 2007, 08:18:46 AM ---Greetings,
Proverbs 18:13
He who answers a matter before he hears it, It is folly and shame to him.
I have no problem with calling the outright selling of the gospel (shamelessly done on tv) and turning it into a carnal "for profit, name it and claim it" doctrine that doesn't include suffering or persecution for His name's sake as contrary to scripture. I have no problem "coming out of her." It's true that people can twist the scriptures to say what they want it to be for their own pleasures, rather than shaping their hearts to the scriptures for what they actually mean. But to each is given a measure of understanding and by what they do with it is how they will be judged, not by the measure itself - and that too will be on an individual basis, not collectively, like God will say, "oh, you went to such n such a church, sorry you're going to the LOF." That's not what our salvation is based on. As I mentioned earlier, even those at the "church" in Corinth were mislead in their doctrine, yet Paul still called called them "beloved brethren." As far as this issue with the many vs. the few, John 14:2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Throughout the gospels it talks of how "many" Jews heard and believed. It talks how "many" in the crowds believed after hearing Jesus speak. Over and over again it says this. Or do we just ignore those scriptures? Perhaps only "few" will be the elect, but isn't it God who does the electing?
And isn't there a danger in sitting in the judgement seat to say the blanket statement that "all churches teach all wrong"? and thereby have nothing to do with them? Mt. 25:14-46 explains what I just said.
So let's get to the heart of this topic. If I go on-line here, and ask for help in the prayer request section, would there be even one person who would get out their pocketbook and send us financial help? Or more likely would there just be a lot of "I'll pray for you" responses? I don't know, retorical question, perhaps I should have asked prior to receiving help here in my hometown. It was a real answer to our prayer, so I just don't know how some could speak evil of something good God did for my family. In any case, I'm not here to cause division, but simpley ask then, where does one turn to for help? Don't say trust in God 100% because I did, and my prayer was heard, and answered through the hearts of people who love Him and through very real, practical means. These are the sheep mentioned in Mt.25:14-46. As in James 2:
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works.
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
Proverbs 27:2 Let another man praise you, and not your own mouth; A stranger, and not your own lips.
--- End quote ---
Are they (the church in reference here) standing for THE WORD (THE TRUTH). You can't expect to receive or eat at Satan's table and God's too.2 Corinthians 6:17 - Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing (there's a curse on everything they got, because it's not based on truth); and I will receive you.Matthew 6:24 - No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. If someone's not standing for THE TRUTH (a pimp) you're not suppose to accept anything from them. God is jealous, if you're His child.
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