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Author Topic: Faith without works is Dead  (Read 10565 times)

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Gregor

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Faith without works is Dead
« on: October 25, 2007, 11:12:50 PM »

Greetings,
I know Ray teaches that we should come out of the church system of modern christiandom. I tend to feel that this doesn't mean literally stop going to churches based on differences in doctrine, but rather that I can spiritually "come out" of those false teachings. I tend to think that if a church preaches Christ crucifed and resurrected as basis for salvation, and if I'm strong enough in faith/understanding not to be deceived by those differences, that we can still be mutually edifying. Paul touches on this in 2 Tim. and Corinthians.

2ti 2:16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
2ti 2:17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
2ti 2:18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

I believe it is clear from this passage that Paul's view of Hymenaeus and Philetus are that they are not of the faith of Christ. Since they overthrow the faith of some, their faith must also be null. Paul is very harsh on these men. They were indead spreading ungodliness by their message. Saying that the resurrection of past was the main issue of Pauls harshness.

When we come to some Corinthian believers who said there is no resurrection of the dead, it is a completely different story with Paul.

1co 15:11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
1co 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Paul is clear that he is speaking to fellow believers, believers who claimed that there was no resurrection of the dead. He makes this clear in other verses also:

1co 15:14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
1co 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

The main issue is not Christ's resurrection, but their denial of the resurrection. Paul uses Christ not rising as a logical result of the denial of the resurrection of the dead. He then logically deduces that if Christ has not risen, then their faith is empty. But they did not deny Christ’s resurrection nor the salvation of those Christians who have already died. If they did, then their faith would be empty.

1co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

Who is Paul calling “my beloved brethren”? They would, of course, include those who denied the resurrection of the dead. This is a phrase of great love and affection. It shows that they were still of the faith, despite their false beliefs.

It seems to me that differences in doctrine are not always reason enought to completely disown other believers. In fact, I would think this might just bring judgement on me. Is it wrong to agree to disagree on the differences in interpretation so long as they don't take away from Christ's redemptive act of salvation? It seems with Christianity that there are differences in doctrine as extreme as the east is from the west - from preterism, presentism, futurism, universalism, calvanism, armenianism, etc. etc. "isms."  I ask all this because recently my family has fallen on extremely hard times financially and if not for the generosity of our church, we would be literally starving. We were blessed (I see it as a blessing from God) with $500 worth of grocery vouchers from this church. I don't know if anyone here, or even Ray for that matter, would be willing to help us in this practical "work" of love. Does this forum support one another in a practical manner, other than with words? If I "come out" of Babylon, as Ray teaches, where does that leave me in a practical, everyday sense of the word? How are we here at BT truly showing our faith by our works? I don't ask this in a condemning manner, but in sincerity of heart. If we are to "come out" of Babylon, how are we taking care of one another practically? In all truth, I would be left alone here with my family and no support. God provided, perhaps he just used the devil to foot the bill?? I say that rather loosely, as I don't view differences in doctrine equating to complete heresy. The heart of the people (church) was/is loving enought to reach out to me and my family in a real, practical way in our time of need. For that I'm grateful to God. Is there anything like this here at the BT forum, a fund to help eachother in time of need?
G.
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Matt

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2007, 12:22:40 AM »

Gregor,
  I love your candor and honesty here.  I prayed today about how I or others would be received here if we opened up like you just did! 
My wife and I attend/support medical and dental missions to Cambodia and the Philippines every year with a group of churches based here in Japan.  I used to get frustrated being around so many people that love Christ and yet do not understand Him.  I have learned to not condemn them in my thoughts and just pray for them.   I try to remember the below scripture:
Philippians 1:15-18a
“15) It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16) The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17) The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18) But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.”


I totally understand what you are saying here.  I am on duty all night, but when I have more time, I will respond more. 
Matt :)

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Chris R

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2007, 02:06:16 AM »

Hello Gregor,

Yes there have been times when the forum members have helped one another, But i doubt any of them would stand up and take a bow for such a deed. .

Yes it is true the church does many wonderful works, And that they preach Christ and him crucified, And their are acts of kindness in all churches.

Even so, there is a problem,

 Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

The MANY are never the FEW, "many" always takes on the larger portion of a group. While it is true that this verse speaks to the church, it speaks to those who do good deeds in the church, and it speaks to the largest portion The Many.

Then what happens?

 Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.  WHAT?....

WHY? ..why Does Christ profess to them, I don't Know you? These folks have done many wonderful things, and they have done them IN HIS NAME

There's that word again..MANY.... many wonderful works, whats this mean?..a majority of someone or something...MANY wonderful works! It means that MOST of what they have done...have been WONDERFUL WORKS...

Then WHY does Christ profess unto them...I DONT KNOW YOU?..And then He says...Depart from me?....basically...get away from me...you workers of iniquity....WHAT?

Workers of INIQUITY?...but i thought a MAJORITY of what they did was WONDERFUL?

Now I ask you...Who's works where they doing?...Obviously Not the works of Christ.

A thought to Ponder

Peace

Chris R





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Craig

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2007, 02:16:27 AM »

Quote
We were blessed (I see it as a blessing from God) with $500 worth of grocery vouchers from this church. I don't know if anyone here, or even Ray for that matter, would be willing to help us in this practical "work" of love. Does this forum support one another in a practical manner, other than with words?

If you believe in what Ray teaches be sure to let your church know and see if you are helped in the future.   Yes the forum has helped others in the past but because of the nature of an internet forum it is difficult.  The forum is not a church (thank God)


If I "come out" of Babylon, as Ray teaches, where does that leave me in a practical, everyday sense of the word?

That leaves you trusting in God 100%. Ray or nobody here suggests (nor should suggest) you leave your church, that is between you and God, but I guarantee if you start following the true word of God and He starts calling you out of the church, you won't want to go back.

How are we here at BT truly showing our faith by our works? I don't ask this in a condemning manner, but in sincerity of heart. If we are to "come out" of Babylon, how are we taking care of one another practically?

I know you say this in not in a condemning manner but sincerely, what do you mean?  When you live in faith and complete trust, God will show you what you need to be doing.   If you are in tune with that small still voice of His spirit and He wants you to help a neighbor or stranger financially then you will, the true fruits of Christ in you will by it's nature lead to real fruit in your life, not the false works of man.  Do you think that the works of God is only to support financially?  Didn't Christ say "The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me."  I guess what I'm trying to say is seek the kingdom of God first and you will be doing what He wants you to do.  To suggest that members of the forum are not helping their neighbor, leaves me speechless, should we start another forum section titled "What I'm doing to prove I have good works"  Then we can talk about who does more and pat each other on the back.

 In all truth, I would be left alone here with my family and no support.

No, you would be left with your family and trusting God and Christ.  In my opinion what more do I need?


 God provided, perhaps he just used the devil to foot the bill?? I say that rather loosely, as I don't view differences in doctrine equating to complete heresy. The heart of the people (church) was/is loving enought to reach out to me and my family in a real, practical way in our time of need. For that I'm grateful to God. Is there anything like this here at the BT forum, a fund to help eachother in time of need?
G.

Again follow God with all your heart and you can be sure you are doing His will.  You are where you need to be at this time and that is fine.  If you continue your journey don't be surprised if you are called out of the church.  I have been were you are so I speak from experience.  And I also believe God is calling you out now Gregor or you would not have brought up the subject, you feel the pull and you are naturally struggling and fearful, (again, I've been there and bought the shirt :)) Blessings to you in your journey.

Craig


« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 09:02:39 AM by Craig »
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Craig

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2007, 02:36:35 AM »

Philippians 1:15-18a
“15) It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16) The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17) The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18) But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.”

Matt :)

Matt, I like this verse also, but I question one thing in my mind.  Paul is saying that some people are preaching Christ because of selfish ambition but they are at least preaching the truth of Christ.  I wonder if Paul would say the same now when the truth is not being preached?

Don't misunderstand, I would not trade my time in the church for anything because it was a part of leading me to the truth.  But now it is dead to me.  Nothing highlights something better than to have it contrasted with the opposite. 

Craig
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Sue Creamer

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2007, 03:49:58 AM »

Craig,

I believe you have said it like it is....!  If I were able to write what God's spirit puts in my heart, I would have writen just as you have posted!  In other words, thank you for saying what is in my heart also.
peace
Sue Ann
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Chris R

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2007, 04:17:30 AM »

Sometimes my belly is sour when i read of the good deeds of the church, apparently the following verses mean nothing to those reading them.



Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.   Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. Mat 6:1-2

These verses are direct, there is no wiggle room, Christ did not say...take heed that you sometimes do your deeds before men, Or that it's OK to get a little recognition for your good deeds, NOPE...Christ said DO NOT do your alms before men....

Christ was very clear in this statement, If then we give a gift, or a good deed, do it in secret, that those seeing havent a clue to who did what.

Nope..not today...we publisize those giving large gifts, those giving hopital wings, those giving to the poor, we revel at their kindness...but to what end?

Yea, they have received their reward....recognition....vanity...pride....No doubt some will not like this post, but then again, I didnt write the verse, and have been guilty of the same thing.

Chris R
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 04:19:54 AM by Chris R »
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javajoe

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2007, 05:52:29 AM »

Gregor,

God bless your heart.  I am in a very similar situation. I am still attending my church, yet struggling with the idea of leaving. They are great people at my church and do many wonderful works. I love going to church, especially for the worship.  I am not a member, nor do I wish to become one so I feel I am OK where I am at now.  You are at where you are at right now, and the time to leave, if ever, I believewill be made clear to you. We are all in a learning process.

Javajoe
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Bradigans

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2007, 06:47:50 AM »

Faith without works is dead, but works without faith (the leading of Christ) is dead also (Matthew 7:22-23). Are you sure you're not being lured? Satan is clever. Follow THE WORD, not your belly (Romans 16:18, Philippians 3:19)...
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ciy

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2007, 07:14:29 AM »

I agree Bradigans and Chris.

I believe one should have an even stronger warning because it is the synagogue of satan.  Yes God is causing all but be aware of the fact that it is not good encouragement to encourage one another to stay in Bablyon or go back to Egypt.  God is a jealous God. 

The worship of a god that is going to burn people in hell throughout infinity is the worship of the god of this world.  Another Jesus, not the God of the bible.

One is still in the flesh and commit sins daily, but one should not encourage their brothers that it is ok to continue in sin.  One should fight the good fight daily and continue to fill up on the word so as to be transformed from the inside out. 

No harm in past stumbles focus on the future to clean out the inside of the cup and have Christ in you.
CIY
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jacieleigh

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2007, 07:46:34 AM »

Forgive the intrusion but I must ask a question. Does the thread mean that those who are still in the established churches are less spiritually correct (for lack of a better term) than those who do notattend an established church. I must say too that I agree with the person(forgive me, I don't recall the name) who has received help from the church. The Bible speaks of "whatsoever you do for these... you do for Me". I have been in circumstances where I would have people tell me to have faith and  trust God and they would be praying for me but that didn't stop the pain in my stomach from having no food to eat.
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Craig

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2007, 08:02:29 AM »

Forgive the intrusion but I must ask a question. Does the thread mean that those who are still in the established churches are less spiritually correct (for lack of a better term) than those who do notattend an established church. I must say too that I agree with the person(forgive me, I don't recall the name) who has received help from the church. The Bible speaks of "whatsoever you do for these... you do for Me". I have been in circumstances where I would have people tell me to have faith and  trust God and they would be praying for me but that didn't stop the pain in my stomach from having no food to eat.

I think it has been stated many times before, that what you do is between you and God, if the church is where you feel you need to be, who are any of us to tell you differently.  I don't consider myself to be any better off spiritually than anyone else anywhere, I just feel blessed that God called me to follow, see and believe the truths of His word.  And over time to be more able to defend my faith if asked, and to be used to show Christ in me.

But I will add this.
Why do you attend church?
If you believe any of the teachings of the scripture as Ray brings out, is it not against what the church teaches? 
If it is and you don't believe what the church teaches then why be there? 
It is obviously not for spiritual nourishment, because not much truth is there, so must it be to feed our carnal desires?
What desires are being fed?

I don't want anyone to answer, these are just questions to ponder.

Craig
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 09:42:55 AM by Craig »
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2007, 09:47:01 AM »

It is impossible to go to church and maintain your honesty. Sooner or later someone is going speak positively about some rank heresy and you will have to comment. That's when:

Joh 16:2  They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Also consider:

2Co 6:14  Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Ray has a saying: "If the church teaches it, it's wrong." If you dig just a little you will find the church's teaching's are 99.99% wrong (but as I just said, you do have to dig).

Dennis
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2007, 09:53:37 AM »

Please let me add:

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Who/what do you think God is refering to when He say "come out of her?"
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Bradigans

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2007, 10:25:59 AM »

Forgive the intrusion but I must ask a question. Does the thread mean that those who are still in the established churches are less spiritually correct (for lack of a better term) than those who do notattend an established church. I must say too that I agree with the person(forgive me, I don't recall the name) who has received help from the church. The Bible speaks of "whatsoever you do for these... you do for Me". I have been in circumstances where I would have people tell me to have faith and  trust God and they would be praying for me but that didn't stop the pain in my stomach from having no food to eat.

Actually some of us not only attend a church that is established, but belong to THE ONLY TRULY ESTABLISHED CHURCH (1st Peter 2:5, Mark 14:58, 1 Corinthians 12:13).

- Hebrews 11:10 - For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2007, 10:30:36 AM »

I agree Bradigans and Chris.

I believe one should have an even stronger warning because it is the synagogue of satan.  Yes God is causing all but be aware of the fact that it is not good encouragement to encourage one another to stay in Bablyon or go back to Egypt.  God is a jealous God. 

The worship of a god that is going to burn people in hell throughout infinity is the worship of the god of this world.  Another Jesus, not the God of the bible.

One is still in the flesh and commit sins daily, but one should not encourage their brothers that it is ok to continue in sin.  One should fight the good fight daily and continue to fill up on the word so as to be transformed from the inside out. 

No harm in past stumbles focus on the future to clean out the inside of the cup and have Christ in you.
CIY

CIY, i agree completely.

Earlier i was having a hard time because some here seem to be telling me that those who teach this Christ who will torture people forever are my 'brothers and sisters' yet Christ called those who believe on Him of the devil. How can those that believe on the devil and preach this discusting pagan doctrine be my brothers and sisters? I still struggle with this as times, but i think it see it more clearly now.

Satan is very decietful, subtle as genesis tells us! I sitll have a hard time calling those who preach this Christ my brothers and sisters, it doesn't sit well with the spirit inside me, perhaps i need more prayer, this i will always do Lord willing.

As ray has written, i do believe that the christian church of today, babylon, is where the throne of satan resides.

Brothers and sisters in there? Only God knows who is His, but since i do not know who among them is my brother and sister, i am very weary and careful to call them that.

God bless all and if i am misguided, someone please correct me! I'm always wanting to listen and learn more.

With love,

Alex
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2007, 10:57:28 AM »


The irony Alex is once WE have left Babylon and no longer bow to their false teachings and blasphemous ideologies. they to then practise their piety and holier than thou pomp and ceremony by not only teaching others to separate from US but they slander and would kill if they could, anyone who believes God and His Word. It is then that Babylonians too are lead to become very weary and careful to call US brothers and sisters! ;D I speak from experience  ;D

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
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ciy

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2007, 11:16:56 AM »

I agree Alex and Arcturus,

It is a daily battle to keep those birds, locusts, and creeping things out of the heavens of your mind.  Even though we know the truth now, it is a daily battle to keep the traditions that we believed so long from creeping back in and taking us back to Egypt in our minds making the word of God of no effect.  That is why it is so important to encourage each other to stay the course and fight the good fight of faith.  It is a strait gate and a very narrow path that leads to salvation.  It is a wide gate and a broad path that leads to destruction. 

Be strong and courageous then we will be able to lead others to the promise land.  But be very strong and courageous.
CIY
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Gregor

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2007, 11:18:46 AM »

Greetings,

Proverbs 18:13
He who answers a matter before he hears it, It is folly and shame to him.

I have no problem with calling the outright selling of the gospel (shamelessly done on tv) and turning it into a carnal "for profit, name it and claim it" doctrine that doesn't include suffering or persecution for His name's sake as contrary to scripture. I have no problem "coming out of her." It's true that people can twist the scriptures to say what they want it to be for their own pleasures, rather than shaping their hearts to the scriptures for what they actually mean. But to each is given a measure of understanding and by what they do with it is how they will be judged, not by the measure itself - and that too will be on an individual basis, not collectively, like God will say, "oh, you went to such n such a church, sorry you're going to the LOF." That's not what our salvation is based on. As I mentioned earlier, even those at the "church" in Corinth were mislead in their doctrine, yet Paul still called called them "beloved brethren." As far as this issue with the many vs. the few, John 14:2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Throughout the gospels it talks of how "many" Jews heard and believed. It talks how "many" in the crowds believed after hearing Jesus speak. Over and over again it says this. Or do we just ignore those scriptures? Perhaps only "few" will be the elect, but isn't it God who does the electing?
And isn't there a danger in sitting in the judgement seat to say the blanket statement that "all churches teach all wrong"?  and thereby have nothing to do with them? Mt. 25:14-46 explains what I just said.
So let's get to the heart of this topic. If I go on-line here, and ask for help in the prayer request section, would there be even one person who would get out their pocketbook and send us financial help? Or more likely would there just be a lot of "I'll pray for you" responses? I don't know, retorical question, perhaps I should have asked prior to receiving help here in my hometown. It was a real answer to our prayer, so I just don't know how some could speak evil of something good God did for my family. In any case, I'm not here to cause division, but simpley ask then, where does one turn to for help? Don't say trust in God 100% because I did, and my prayer was heard, and answered through the hearts of people who love Him and through very real, practical means. These are the sheep mentioned in Mt.25:14-46. As in James 2:
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works.
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Proverbs 27:2 Let another man praise you, and not your own mouth; A stranger, and not your own lips.
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Gregor

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Re: Faith without works is Dead
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2007, 11:24:50 AM »


The irony Alex is once WE have left Babylon and no longer bow to their false teachings and blasphemous ideologies. they to then practise their piety and holier than thou pomp and ceremony by not only teaching others to separate from US but they slander and would kill if they could, anyone who believes God and His Word. It is then that Babylonians too are lead to become very weary and careful to call US brothers and sisters! ;D I speak from experience  ;D

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)

I don't bow to their ideologies. I certainly wouldn't raise one finger against anyone here, let alone kill. Very pompous and false assumptions. I know many a believer who give you the shirt off their backs to help someone, not to be seen by man, but out of obedience to the word of God.
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