lake of fire on earth?

[pawz]

hello, I  have not posted here before - or maybe once. Have tended to be 'off' Christian Forums for some time as  too often you come away with a bad impression, and no answers. However, I look in from time to time, and today I  clicked on my bookmark for here and remembered you as a 'peaceful spot', so here I am

I am a Christian Universalist btw.

I have been reading the first party of Ray's lake of fire series, and copied it to Word to go through it at my leisure so I can absorb  the truths I find there - but one thing bothers me and it is getting in the way of my concentration. It could be that Ray answers this issue elsewhere. if so, my apologies for an unnecessary post.

I get the  strong impression from Revelation 19:17 on that the  scene is being set for Armageddon and that the location is  earth, and that this is where the beast and the false prophet are thrown into a lake of fire (v20).  How does this fit in with Ray's teaching I wonder?

[Chris R]

Hello

Please take into consideration, Most everything you read in Revelations is not literal, but is a symbol.

Rev 19:21: And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This is not a "literal" sword, And Christ does not "sit" on a literal "horse", these are symbols, that signify certain things, I cannot possibly answer your question, it would take hundreds of pages, Keep reading the articles, they will help you see some truth in this matter.

Chris R

[pawz]

I am disappointed that you cannot answer my question more fully Chris - but thank you anyway.

[Kat]

Hi Pawz,

Glad you have joined in with a question 
But I must say you question is very broad.  As Craig said you have to understand the symbolic meaning of things in Revelation.  As the Sword in Christ's month is the word of Truth, so how does He kill people with it?  By destorying their flesh, another symbol for our carnal ways.
Now read this verse about Christ's return, with these symbols in mind.

Jer 25:31  'A clamor has come to the end of the earth, Because the LORD has a controversy with the nations. He is entering into judgment with all flesh; As for the wicked, He has given them to the sword,' declares the LORD."

When you start to understand all the symbols of the Scripture then you can put many Scripture into proper context.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Craig]

Pawz,

Don't be disappointed, I would answer if I could, but the fact is, I don't know.

I do have my ideas and speculations but I won't post them because I as a moderator do not like to see speculation bandied about things we have no definitive answer to.  Truth, is like clear water and speculation is like a pin drop of food coloring.  Throw a little of it in and the water is no longer clear.

I realize the moderators take some heat for not allowing certain posts to continue but we walk a thin line to try and keep the truth clear.

Blessings
Craig

[pawz]

Craig, Kat, appreciate your kind encouragement. Kat I will ponder your words - but I still have a 'but' in regard to that passage, simply because it seems to be talking about a literal earthly event and a literal consequence on earth - that is how it reads to me at present. However, I did not come on here to cause problems, so I will say no more. Thank you both.

[rjsurfs]

Hi Pawz,

Your sincere questions to gain understanding are not a problem at all... and I understand that many of the answers you see here appear short and maybe even as if people are withholding information... but it is as Chris stated... that it has taken hundreds of pages and many hours of study to bring many of us to understanding... I also believe that understanding often requires a journey of time as the meat of God's Word can not be immediately swallowed as milk, but must be chewed.

Keep in mind what you read at the beginning of the Lake of Fire series... I will quote a small excerpt:

"Most of my life I believed that the book of Revelation was a literal prophecy about events that will happen at the END OF THE WORLD! Prophesies that had virtually no meaning for those who have lived during the past two thousand years since it was written. But for most of my life, I WAS IN ERROR!

Now for a most important understanding. Just how was this revelation to John to be recorded and preserved? Notice it:

"...and he sent and SIGNIFIED it by his angel unto his servant John" (Rev. 1:1)

What does it mean to "signify?" Certainly this prophecy of the revelation or unveiling of Christ was written down (ver. 19), but it means more than just that. To "signify" has to do with signs and symbols. From my Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary p. 1541, first definition of signify:

"to make known by signs or words"

First definition of sign:

"any symbol ...that represents an idea"

That which, being external, represents or signifies something internal or spiritual.

The synonym for sign is: symbol.

There is no mistaking this language. The book of Revelation is written in SYMBOLS! So what is written externally, on paper, in symbols, has a SPIRITUAL meaning and application."

Keep reading... I have read the LoF several times through (while studying scripture) and I gain more understanding each time.

Bobby

[hebrewroots98]

member
Welcome Pawz. 

Recently my little boy and I were talking about biblical matters and a christian evangelist (a paid staff member in an evangelists position at a christian church bldg) had asked me what it was that enlightened and why did I leave that church (the same denomination he is in right now), I told him that I would answer his question as to why I am enlightened, but I will not discuss/debate/argue anthing else with him (he kept wanting me to answer why I didn't believe in this that and the other anymore.)  After weeks of him rwanting me to answer all of his questions and him  really not wanting to know what made me enlightened; then I had to tell him that we cannot have the unity in spirit if he does not do as he said he would do and read BT web site where it will clearly show how I got enlightened.  He skimmed the subjects and came back and wanted me to answer all of his questions still; so, I told him that that would literally take years to answer all of his questions (and I could answer them), but that if (again) he would read and STUDY the info, he will find out most of what I believe and why I don't believe what I used to beleive as well as how I got enlightened.  Ultimately, he just wanted to argue his position and beliefs, not what it was that enlightened me...so, I have not heard from him since.)

I do not believe that you want to argue, but, truly, just about everyone who has stayed for a long period of time on this site as members has read and studied the materials and has come away with nearly all of their questions answered via the info on the site....

Blessings to you brother, in your studies here....it will be the best journey in this life!!!!    

[pawz]

OK Hebrewroots, thank you for taking trouble, I will follow your advice in the hope that  sooner or later it will answer my query - sooner I hope, and Bobby, yes, there is a degree of frustration building - but I will read on and see how I progress.

[hebrewroots98]

Pawz,
Relax and take your time and let the spirit minister to your heart and mind; we don't want you to choke on this meat here @ Bt; the holy spirit is a gentlemn, in that he will only feed you what you are able to digest...and not any more.   Let us know what you are learning!

[pawz]

hebrewroots, good morning (UK). I have read through Rays  three articles on LoF and  find that so much of what he has found in scripture is what I have found also. It makes me wonder what he would say about other portions of scripture, notably Genesis Chapter 1.  I dislike the adversarial tone he writes in, so I intend to copy his writings to Word and then  reduce them to scriptural essentials. I cannot say  my questions have been answered yet - and of course other questions are raised in the reading - but that is OK, I can wait.  How much we agree that the treasures of scripture are worth digging for! Gotta go out now.  Be back later

[hebrewroots98]

Hi Pawz,
I had written down all of my questions/doubts once I began reading Rays papers; and low and behold everyone of them got answered by the end of reading all that he had.  Of course one needs to always go back b/c there is soo much info,but, all of his info overlaps at some point.  So, maybe you can write down all of your questions and mark them off one at a time and then whatever you can't find or understand, then those will be the questions to pose to the forum.  (Even what has been written in  the forum goes into detail if you can't understand it ifrom Rays' papers...)   


Pawz,in regard to your concern about Rays' tone... if you were in Rays position, how would you fare in comparisson?  I am not saying that he may not come across that way to the newbies here, but, once you read all of his info and hear him on the audios, you get to understand the mans' heart.   Personally, I think he is doing an amazing job!  I couldn't say the same for myself given his same position;  I mean, I would think that at least 90 to 95% of his emails and correspondence ARE HATE MAIL; ARGUMENTIVE; ACCUSATORY; LIES; THREATS; AND ACCUSING HIM OF BEING SATAN; ACCUSING HIM OF CONTRADICTIONS; AND TELLING HIM THAT HE IS GOING TO HELL....AND THE MAJORITY (PROBABLY ABOUT 98%) IS ALL FROM... 'CHRISTIANS'...!!!!  (I personally would let mey flesh get in the way if I had to deal with this kind of unrelenting negativity on a daily basis...he does an AWESOME job of keeping his cool underfire; he is the most dedicated warrior for truth that I have ever in my entire life had the priviledge of knowing!
Shalom,
Susan

[Alberta_Guy]

Could not have said it better Susan!

[Craig]

I had written down all of my questions/doubts once I began reading Rays papers; and low and behold everyone of them got answered by the end of reading all that he had.  Of course one needs to always go back b/c there is soo much info,but, all of his info overlaps at some point.  So, maybe you can write down all of your questions and mark them off one at a time and then whatever you can't find or understand, then those will be the questions to pose to the forum.  (Even what has been written in  the forum goes into detail if you can't understand it ifrom Rays' papers...)   

Susan,

That is a great idea and one I wish people would follow through on, myself included.  When I first found Ray's writings I had a bunch of questions that I  posted and asked about.  Only to find out how foolish I was because the answers were right there in front of me all along.  I still have questions on things Ray has, and has not, covered and I have answered most in my own mind but will not post or give opinions to things Ray has not covered, because I am not a teacher and I could be wrong.

Craig

[Phil3:10]

Hello Pawz,
I was called out of the institutional, organized, denominational church system by GOD. I found out after years of searching that GOD was not there. GOD directed me to Ray's BT site. I have not found all the answers to my growing list of questions but I have found many never known nor taught in Christianity. I have spent hundreds of hours looking at many sites and still come back regularly to BT. I always feel the spiritual solid food that I receive at BT is helping me find the answers to my questions. Ray would be the first to admit that he is not perfect nor does he have all the answers  I don't think that any man alive has all the answers and if he said he did I would run as fast as I could away from him.  The Spirit of God alone can reveal truth. Study, ask, knock  and you will receive. Don't depend on man for answers. Read John 8, 31-36. Jesus simply says to continue in HIS word, then indeed you are HIS disciples indeed and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free indeed. All of John 6 reveals the truths of GOD as HE draw and teaches HIS truths.

I try not to have too much confidence in anything that a man says. However, I have found very little that I disagree with on BT. This is not to say that Ray or BT is perfect.  It is GOD who continues to work in me toward HIS promise to save me. HE uses many sources to accomplish HIS promise. I trust in HIM to finish HIS work in me.
Phil3:10

[hebrewroots98]

Thank you Alberta Guy and Craig. 

Craig and all, I too still have questions that I would like to have answered, but the BIGGIES (like NO HELL; NO TITHING; THE CHURCH IS TODAYS' SPIRITUAL HARLOT/THE BABYLONIAN SYSTEM; THE CHURCH IS DECIEVED AND THEY SERVE A DIFF GOD THAN THE BIBLES' GOD!, FREE WILL,  ETC...) are what really matters, and those biggies (thankfully, to Ray and those of you here) have helped me to get them answered.  (Ha, I remember writing down those same important questions when I was searching (ONLY half heartily) for the truth back then and then I began worshipping as a Messianic and FINALLY 10 years later  (when I had been dragged by the Lord out of the Babylonian church system)...still ALL of those important questions had still not been answered...ugh!)  As I said earlier, it was not till I got here that I was able to check off one answer at a time...and, those answers were not just head knowledge; they were LIFE, PEACE, TRUTH, SPIRIT; AND IT LITERALLY CHANGED MY ENTIRE OUTLOOK ON EVERYTHING PERTAINING TO LIFE AND GODLINESS! I have been set free indeed~  PRAISE GOD!

[pawz]

Phil, that is about where I am too I guess, and your  words have reassured me.

Hebrewroots (Susan), my words were not intended as  criticism against Ray - I realise he has much to contend with, I have seen how hateful (literally) some Christians can be when their own understanding is challenged, and I know that I could not  carry on under such an onslaught of hate and vitriol as he has to cope with. He is driven on despite all that can be chucked at him by his own convictions and desires to  get the truth out there among so many sheep that have lost their way and are misled by their leaders,so I think. To be  blunt, Ray the person does not interest me, but if he can  fit a few more of the pieces into place, he has my willing attention, but in my study of his explanations and teachings his human responses get in the way, so I will edit them out.

I said I would be back today, and that was my intention - to do a bit more studying and then come on here if I had anything useful to say - but you know how mans ( and womens) plans go awry; We spent the morning  trying to find a place in Chichester selling cookers, and did, eventually, then when we got back someone phoned up with a sick computer,so  he came up and stayed a while before  I could get on with fixing it, and then after dinner tonight I had to clean out the recess where the old cooker stands ( and ladies, don't we know what a mucky job THAT can be! So apologies, I am too tired to do any more study now. Brain goes to bed by 8pm. I probably didn't need to give you all such a detailed 'day in the life of pawz' scenario, but while I feel a bit of a stranger here, I want to be known as a friend, despite my waryness of Ray and not knowing 'the rules' as yet. hope you understand.

[Deborah-Leigh]

I don't agree with anything you say or infer about Ray Pawz. He is the kindest, bravest, sweetest man and it shows through his teachings that lack hypocrisy,forked tongues and deceits that are all too common in the false teachings techniques of heretics and sooth sayers

I hope you get to know Ray better as you continue to study his deep insights into the ways and purposes of God.

Peace to you
Arcturus

[Truth101]

Hi Pawz.

I felt the same way 5 years ago when first coming to bible truths. I was weary of any teaching from anyone since my search for an honest disciple of Christ was hard pressed to find. Infact I had never found one but knew there must me since the original disciples existed and that church was the church Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against (maybe because they are so hard to find ).

You are correct that it is God that leads. We first try the spirits to see if they are of God and that is where you are right now. Like me You are very weary of any teachers and truly you should be. I never found sound doctrine in the church and I came to realise there just isnt any. I now know that God is leading Ray because my questions get answered and in finding these fundimental truths on BT I am able for the first time in my life to seek and find most of the time on my own the answers I am looking for because God is the one leading me to the truth, not some guy on a pulpit who only has an element of truth in which to decieve you into lies, leaving you more confused than when you first began searching for truth. Whether it is intentional or not.

Im glad you're here. We are all babes here learning to chew. I think everyone on this forum double checks everything Ray teaches to make sure it is truth. I do and I believe we should all do that. The more you study the BT web site the more you see that God is leading Ray and in doing so we are also lead. Maturity does take a lifetime and I'm only 37 so I got a long way to go myself.

God bless,
              Dave

[pawz]

Dave, again you have helped me. It is true about being weary. I know my little church is not where I am on so many key issues, good and loving folk though they are, and being a black sheep among a flock of white is discouraging. Coming on forums, by and large has done me little good also - and yet we keep on seeking!

Well, it is late, but I am moved to go do a little bit more study before I turn in, so I will say no more.

Arcturus, trusting people  comes from knowing them. I don't know Ray, yet, so please  be patient with me. The way we  find out about each other, if that is allowed, is to share. I am feeling very disheartened with all things Christian at present - to the point of tears, but here I am. I can lurk rather than share if the rest of you would prefer - until I get a clearer picture of you all and of Ray.