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Raised
musicman:
Tell your friend, if you are to receive grace now, then you must be judged now. I'm not entirely sure that the two are any different.
jackson:
I think that was his point...at least thats how I took it.
Grace is after all the consequence of judgement for those who repent.
Kat:
Hi Jackson,
You've got me to thinking about grace now :)
In your post you say;
--- Quote ---Grace is after all the consequence of judgement for those who repent.
--- End quote ---
I'm thinking grace works with judgment, not after.
I looked through some of Ray's email to help get clarity on this.
I have pulled out a few excerpts that help explain this to me.
http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm#zender ----------------
"For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, TEACHING US [image that, 'grace' is a VERB THAT DOES SOMETHING--IT TEACHES US SOMETHING. What?...] ...TEACHING US that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, RIGHTEOUSLY, AND GODLY, in this present world" (That again would be, The Apostle Paul to Titus, Titus 2:11-12).
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2538.0.html -------
I have taught for many years now that grace is both a noun and a verb. As a noun it is the state of being blessed and gifted with favor from God. This is not anything that one can earn or deserve. But grace is also used as a verb, in that it does something: "For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men TEACHING us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously and godly, in this present world" ( Titus 2:11-12).
http://bible-truths.com/email10.htm#reincarnation ----
What about GRACE? It is GRACE that trains, teaches, and CHASTISES us so that we should be "disowning irreverence and worldly desires" (Titus 2:11). Grace does not "take all these things AWAY for us" but rather disciplines and chastises these things OUT OF US. It is a process, it takes time, and it is not always pleasant. You WILL become a kinder person as God continues to chastise you by means OF His Grace.
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Just thought I would bring this to the conversation :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
jackson:
Kat, I see your point 8). Maybe I am blurring the line between grace and salvation. Thanks for the admonishment ;D.
I think I was understanding grace more as a noun (a state of being blessed and gifted with favor from God). That sounds alot like forgivness...is it the same thing ???
I'm sorry if I'm throwing this discussion off track. If not for ignorance I wouldn't have much.
Jackson
Kat:
Hi Jackson,
Well it is a gift of God, but it is given so that we will use it.
Ray gave a Biblestudy where he spoke a lot on this, here is an excerpt.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html ----------
Grace is a gift, but it’s got to be USED. Listen when something influences something, that means it does something. If you are inspired about something, you either think or write or do something, that’s the proof of the inspiration. So if something influences you it makes you think, say, do, work or something, are there is no influence. We just read that faith is divine influence upon the heart and that grace teaches us, the same that judging chastens us. It’s the same Greek word. It’s interesting it says in Eph. 2:8, “for we are saved by grace….” Well that’s great, that’s wonderful (period). No, no period, comma, “….THROUGH FAITH.” Well shucks, we’re saved by grace….through faith, okay. Well what does that mean? ‘Through’ is a channel.
v
v
Eph 2:8 for by grace (a gratuitous gift - divine influence upon the heart) are you saved through faith(believing and doing God‘s will); and that (faith) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
v. 9 not of (our) works, less any man should boast (you boast when you do your own works).
v. 10 For we are HIS workmanship (His achievement - His works),
Do you get that? Where it says “not of works,” but “for good works” Wait a minute is that a contradiction? No, “not of (our) works” but “for (His) good works.” There are works, they’re just not ours. But we are of His workmanship. Workmanship has the word ‘work.’ The Concordant translates it ‘achievement.’ When you want to achieve something it takes work. Who’s doing the work here? God is doing the work. What is that work? Divine influence upon the heart and then you do things.
Eph 2:10 “… created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God has afore ordained that we should walk in them.”
So there are works.
Rom 8:28 “And we know that God WORKS all (things), together for the good…” Verse 29 “….predestined us to be conformed into the image of His Son.”
That is the whole thing. What is the purpose of works? To be conformed into the image of His Son. What image is that? The image of God. So what is it that God is creating humanity in? His image. Was it completed? No, it was not good, it was not so. But it will be one day. One day it will be so and it will be good. God is changing the carnal physical human mind into His spiritual divine mind.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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