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Raised
musicman:
Rev. 20:5
. . . they also live and reined with Christ a thousand years. This is the former resurrection.
It seems to me that the thousand years would be necessary for the elect to learn how to judge the world. As Ray says, the elect are not "born again" until resurrected. I doubt that they will be ready to judge anything.
Kat:
I find this a very interesting subject as well and it does come to my mind quite often.
As I look at this Scripture passage in Matt. it makes me think that the the first resurrection and the resurrection of the dead happens at the same time.
Mat 25:31 "When the Son of man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before Him will be gathered all the nations, and He will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
Mat 25:33 and He will place the sheep at His right hand, but the goats at the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those at His right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
Mat 25:41 Then He will say to those at His left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
Christ's return in His glory and "every eye will see Him.." Isn't this referring to all people and this must be after the resurrected of the dead, because it also says, "even they who pierced Him." This probably has a spiritual meaning of all people, but I think it means those that actually did do this physically at His crucifixion. So all have already been resurrected and are seeing Him.
Now in Matt. 25 when He separates the sheep from the goats, isn't this the great white throne judgment?
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it; from
His presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.
Well there are a few things to consider here, as there would have to be an order of events. Because we know it says the saints come WITH Christ.
1Thes 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
So maybe it's that the white throne judgment happen before Christ actually reaches the earth. And He brings all people before Him for judgment and I don't think that it would necessarily take Him a long period of time to pronounce judgment. Maybe that's what this Scripture is talking about.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
So there is the white throne judgment, where all are brought before Christ and judged. And it seems to be before Christ is on earth and also where Christ gathers His Elect and then He is to return to the earth with His ELect.
Mark 13:26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
v. 27 And then He will send out the angels, and gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
I think all these events so far could actually happen in rapid sequence. He has separated the Elect and as He judges the rest of humanity, now they will be cast into the Lake of fire, which is Christ and the Elect. 'THE LAKE OF FIRE - Part XII - GOD JUDGES THE WORLD IN A POND' http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Now that Christ has gathered His Elect and all have been cast into the Lake of fire, then the world will go through judgment. At least that's what it seems like is being said in Rev. 14.
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and lo, the Lamb stood on Mount Zion. And with Him were a hundred and forty-four thousands, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold, a white cloud. And on the cloud sat one like the Son of man, having a golden crown on His head, and a sharp sickle in His hand.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying in a great voice to Him sitting on the cloud, Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth was dried.
Rev 14:16 And He sitting on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple in Heaven, also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had authority over fire. And he spoke with a great cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the anger of God.
This is just the beginning of the process when Christ shall judge the world. The Elect are with Him, but as musicman pointed out they are newly born. So maybe His holy angel are helping out here, as they are mentioned in Rev. 14.
There is so much to think about here. This is not to be consider as a teaching of Truth, but I'm just looking at all these Scriptures and it's what I can make out of it. But it's just my opinion :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Kat
I have also gone down this road of thought quote
--- Quote ---: So maybe it's that the white throne judgment happen before Christ actually reaches the earth.
--- End quote ---
For me the White Throne Judgment can not happen without or in the absence of the King on the Throne. The Judgment now on the House of God is not the White Throne Judgement but for me is the prelude to and preparation of the Saints who will become the LOF with the Spirit of Christ when He returns not to condemn but to purify unbelievers through the White Throne Judgement. This is my human logic and human thinking please note!
I do see what you are saying about the separation of the Goats and the Sheep which could also tie in with the gathering of the Elect from the four corners of the earth or the gathering of the grain into the barn which could speak of the White Throne judgement occurring simultaneously with the Judgement on the House of God NOW for those who believe and the White Throne on those who reject belief. For me this is not how it is though because of the fact that even Jesus Christ was born into our linear time and He died in our linear time and He will come again I believe in our linear time when every eye will see Him. Again, this is my human logic please note! I know that the Scripture does not say every eye will see Him AT THE SAME TIME or can some one bring any scriptures to say that AT THE SAME TIME is what the Word of God says? This is not a challenge but a request for insight or information please.
I for now in my human understanding, can not see that He is here now on the Throne ruling the Nations and executing His wrath. May be I am not comprehending that He is here and for this reason the world is in such a turmoil.
Luke 21 : 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth; for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Men's hearts have failed throughout the History of the world and its dramatic wars and atrocities.
I do know that the TRUE Gospel is not being taught throughout the Nations as it says it will be towards the end. Only lies are being preached except for here in BT via Ray Smith.
Matt 24 : 14 And THIS GOSPEL (Not the one preached by Babylon) of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and THEN SHALL THE END COME.
Another question comes up regarding what is the END that Jesus referred to when He said that His Gospel would be preached to all the world. Was it the END where HE returns all to God or the end as in the start of The Day of The Lord? I know that God's thought are not our thoughts and so the END that Jesus was referring to could well NOT BE the way in which a human carnal being sees the end! :D For this reason the White Throne could be occurring simultaneously with Judgement on the House of God NOW. I am not 100% sure though but I am beginning to think that the END is prior to Jesus returning all to God and not the beginning of the Day of The Lord. That kind of END would mean that the White Throne Judgement is in completion and occuring right now with the teachings of Christ and His Judgements when finally they are in the earth having taught all the Nations righteousness which will then signal the end as Jesus might have percieved THE END.
What ever the answers are....they certainly do deserve to be looked for I think! :D
In short, the question is : Is the White Throne Judgement and the Judgement on the House of God now, occurring simultaneously? At this point, I do not think it is.
What cleared this line of thought up for me is Ray's teaching that trial and tribulation is not the same as wrath and indignation that will come upon the world and on Babylon. It might look like and feel like we are or others are experiencing wrath of God but it is not here yet as I see it. Wickedness is here. Great apostasy is here yes. But God's responce is not yet here I do not believe. I could be wrong.
I can not see that anyone is experiencing God's wrath in this time. We are experiencing the consequences of wickedness and evil yes but Gods wrath? I only think Jesus knows what that wrath is and He said we should pray not to be put to the second death. Peter comforted the people to assure them of this also when they thought that their trials were so bad that it had to be the punishment and wrath of God upon them.
1 Peter 4 : 12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you. 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as you are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when His glory shall be revealed, you may be glad also with exceeding joy.
Peace to you
Arc
Chris R:
Rev. 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
I do know Ray quotes the above Scripture in his writings.
I'm not 100% sure what you mean when you Say Rev 20:5 is not scripture?
I must have missed that, could you post the link>?
Thankyou
Chris R
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Chris
http://www.bibletoday.com/htstb/spurious.htm
You will see that the part of Rev 20 : 5 that is not in the scriptures is quote : Rev. 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished*
The part of Rev 20 : 5 that IS in the scriptures is quote : This is the first resurrection.
I believe this alludes to the order of the resurrection not any number of times that the resurrection will occur.
1 Cor 15 : 23 But each in his own rank and turn: Christ the firstfruits, then those who are Christ's at His coming.
After that, I believe there is a big gap that jumps again to reference to the end which could be exactly what we are all trying to uncover through this discussion because the Scriptures continue with quote:
After that ( no time frame given note) comes the end when He delivers over the kingdom to God the Father after ( AFTER...how long will that take?) rendering inoperative and abolishing every rule and every authority and power....
I am not saying that the second death is not real. It is. It is in the Scriptures and it will occur just as surely as there is a LOF and White Throne Judgement and wrath of God coming upon those who do not believe who will be purified and who will repent and eventually praise Jesus Christ for who He is.
Ray also acknowledged that the spurious insert of the addition to Rev 20 : 5 is not in the oldest manuscripts and he said this in his latest conference. Ray also acknowledged the absence of other scriptures not found in the Word of God.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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